Author Topic: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)  (Read 6763 times)

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 72167
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« on: February 26, 2014, 08:15:35 pm »
Question, based on THIS VIDEO 

So there's a whole bunch of number-techy-onomics going on but the bigger picture gist made sense to me in a kind of thinking tiny and between the lines. But my immediate gut instinct is telling me that it should be even simpler. If we just set up an online bank for all of the third world people and inject an account worth a couple of hundred K in each of their names, they can now purchase goods but not assets unless offered by way of export sale (they can't club together and asset strip microsoft or anything)

Suddenly everyone's order books are fuller than they've ever been but all the money is coming back here. We all get rich and go apeshit buying stuff. The filthy rich will probably get even more disgustingly filithier. So the next month do we give them twice as much?

This obviously can't happen, right, because...
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2014, 08:19:57 pm »
Remember when Ireland was going to get rich selling each other houses?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoomô
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 87071
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2014, 08:27:13 pm »
I'm honored you think I'm an economist, but I'm really not.

From what I can gather from Krugman, printing money is a good idea only when certain conditions are met, something called a "liquidity trap".  I think it's something to do with what happens when the interest rate approaches zero.

Anyway, I have no idea what the economic situation is in these other companies, or how prone they are to corruption, etc.


And that's pretty much the limit of my economic knowledge.

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 72167
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2014, 08:59:53 pm »
K, I thought you were a money-guy. I'm thinking this whole "economics" thing isn't working optimally. It's overcomplicated I think but one other simple facet is that the supply of money is kept scarce. It's how it used to be, back in the days where all they could produce was the odd cart wheel or sturdy hessian smock. Nowadays the only reason there aren't more things being produced is cos the people at the plants are getting laid off.

Right now they're injecting cash in at the top and waiting for it to trickle down. And it's not 's not trickle down economics we need, it's flood-up. Fill in the holes with the starving people in, with a sea of cash. Here's the simple facts of the matter - cash buys food. People are starving. For a lot of people, it's because they can't afford the food. Give them the cash and let companies like Tesco and Sports Direct and little guys, construction companies and the like, organise shipping the goods and services out. Opening up retail outlets and setting up projects. Getting the increased production out to the consumers.

Our life might be shit but compared to starving fuckers, our life is the hilton. We don't give enough of a collective shit to pay to save our fellow apes and have to take a significant drop in our living standards. This way would help out the needing help contingent and filter back to us, making us even better off.

I'ma keep blurting out shit like this, like a retard, until someone explains it to me in a language I can understand, cos right now, I'm not getting it.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105003
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 09:06:09 pm »
Do you want to know how they're "injecting" the cash?

They lend it to the major banks, at nearly zero interest rate.  The banks then turn around, and lend it to us, at much higher interest rates.

And yet the banks still regularly need bailouts and support.  Allegedly.  Despite working on a business model where it's literally impossible to not make a profit.  Unless you're making stupendously stupid gambles with the money or something.  But of course, bankers are sober and repsonsible people, so I'm sure that's not happening.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 09:11:47 pm »
Do you want to know how they're "injecting" the cash?

They lend it to the major banks, at nearly zero interest rate.  The banks then turn around, and lend it to us, at much higher interest rates.

And yet the banks still regularly need bailouts and support.  Allegedly.  Despite working on a business model where it's literally impossible to not make a profit.  Unless you're making stupendously stupid gambles with the money or something.  But of course, bankers are sober and repsonsible people, so I'm sure that's not happening.

What's really funny is that, for a while, they DIDN'T lend it out at a higher rate.

They bought T-bills with it, and wound up basically charging US interest on the loans we gave THEM.

Which is Emperor Palpatine level evil.  In a twisted way, you almost have to admire it.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 72167
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2014, 09:14:22 pm »
That's exactly what I'm talking about, Cain. They're injecting it wrong. It happens at the top of the inequality pyramid. Meanwhile third world starves.

Hypothesise, please - they do nothing other than invent a whole bunch of cash balances and give the people who don't have anything an account number. What happens next?
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105003
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2014, 09:16:23 pm »
Yes, that's true.  They did the same over here actually.  Our local factory nearly went under as a result of those kind of games.  They're still not lending as much as they used to, though I'm not entirely clear why.  Other than them being evil, impulsive and not very bright, I mean.

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105003
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2014, 09:17:31 pm »
That's exactly what I'm talking about, Cain. They're injecting it wrong. It happens at the top of the inequality pyramid. Meanwhile third world starves.

Hypothesise, please - they do nothing other than invent a whole bunch of cash balances and give the people who don't have anything an account number. What happens next?

Uh, third world ecomomies improve making cheap mineral and resource extraction harder and much more economically and politically expensive?

At a guess, talking really broadly.

Red

  • Highly trained stunt pervert
  • Known & Noted
  • **
  • Posts: 1179
  • Orange JUICE!
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2014, 09:18:56 pm »
I'm not an economist, but as best as I understand the idea in the first post wouldn't really work.

1) Corruption.
Every country has it, it's just the wealthy ones are better at hiding it. There's a good chance that as soon as the project is on the boards, people in the USA will start trying to find ways to game it in order to make money. Embezzlement is the tip of the ice berg. A surprising number of non-profits just plain don't devote most of their money to their cause. The worst spend all their money on fundraising and paying their high-level employees. By the way, making the company look good by swaying public opinion in order to get the governemt to give more funds would count as fundraising.

2) Guilt
Not every single 3rd world occupant needs or wants money nor are we really seeing the full picture from what news reporters send over. I'll use Africa as an example as it's a popular target. Some bushman in Africa would see money as pretty useless considering he'd need to go 40 miles to a city in order to use it. He's happy as he is with his wife and his cattle. He and his family aren't asking for our help. Even city dwellers in Africa might be happy as they are- some richer, some pooer but overall no worse than in parts of the USA. Not all of them will want our country's help even if times are hard.

Ever notice how it's usually people who just plain aren't the group in question always saying what's best for the group? Also, ever notice the sheer guilt they tend to toss out there? We need to stop it. We should be listening to them if we really want to help them, not coming up with crazy schemes they may not even want. Here are Africans wanting to collect Radiators for Norway as a parody  of these programs!

3) Good Luck enforcing it
There's a good chance that combining the first two will result in people getting the money when they don't need it, illegally or not, then using fake documents to buy and sell domestic goods instead of international ones (which are more expensive, by the way). Chances are they will be more clever than I can be right now. Either way, maybe 15-25% of the money that actually made it into people's hands will filter back to the USA at best. I really doubt anyone will want to enforce it, anyway, as it's still helping the country it's meant to "help".

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 72167
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2014, 09:24:40 pm »
That's exactly what I'm talking about, Cain. They're injecting it wrong. It happens at the top of the inequality pyramid. Meanwhile third world starves.

Hypothesise, please - they do nothing other than invent a whole bunch of cash balances and give the people who don't have anything an account number. What happens next?

Uh, third world ecomomies improve making cheap mineral and resource extraction harder and much more economically and politically expensive?

At a guess, talking really broadly.

Certain resources become genuinely scarce. Is any of it life threatening or could life as we know it sustain a three thousand pound bag of sugar or whatever pops out the weirdsphere?

Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105003
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2014, 09:30:20 pm »
That's exactly what I'm talking about, Cain. They're injecting it wrong. It happens at the top of the inequality pyramid. Meanwhile third world starves.

Hypothesise, please - they do nothing other than invent a whole bunch of cash balances and give the people who don't have anything an account number. What happens next?

Uh, third world ecomomies improve making cheap mineral and resource extraction harder and much more economically and politically expensive?

At a guess, talking really broadly.

Certain resources become genuinely scarce. Is any of it life threatening or could life as we know it sustain a three thousand pound bag of sugar or whatever pops out the weirdsphere?

Probably not scarce, as such.  But you'd see resource nationalism like in the 1950s and 60s.  Increased wealth would involve a growing middle class and more educated nation, who would probably be upset that Shell, for example, is making so much money in, lets say, the Niger Delta.  And with the resources that affluence, of a sort, and organisational ability and knowledge bring, they'd probably make it harder for politicians in Lagos to do so.  They might argue for nationalisation, like Chavez or Mossadegh, or they might just argue for preferential treatment for Nigerian firms (to continue with a theme), or increased taxation on international companies.

And that would affect the bottom lines of MNCs based in Europe and America, and make them sad.  And when they get sad, they tell big sobby sad stories to their friends in the intelligence community.  And then mysteriously, coup attempts would occur.

Pśs

  • James Bond-defying Shit-Volcano Trigger Device of the Next Armageddon.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 38503
  • I ain't even mad.
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2014, 09:34:42 pm »
So in brief, it would inconvenience the people who have the power to lobby (or more directly insist) that it not happen?

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105003
    • View Profile
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 09:39:07 pm »
Yes.  Banks of course work hand-in-hand with both international firms whose activities may impinge on national interest (such as but not only oil) and the intelligence community too.

So it's one nice, big, circlejerk of people whose interests are served by keeping certain parts of the world poor, in debt, and ruled by a small, paranoid elite who mostly rely on Europe and America for their weapons and luxury goods.

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 72167
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 09:42:23 pm »
Yeah, I'm still seeing no negative effects here. Just a couple of positive ones, I'd never thought about. The coups and political machinations are what's going to stack up in opposition to this kind of thing happening but, if it somehow managed to happen, in spite of that, who's going to be worse off? I'm hypothesising - actually doing this would seem nigh on impossible? If a method of beating these odds became obvious is it the right thing to attempt?
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark