Author Topic: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)  (Read 6736 times)

Telarus

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2014, 03:56:14 pm »
"Economic Stimulus Through Guaranteed Income"?
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2014, 04:19:52 pm »
Needs more punchiness. This has to stick in the heads of Daily Mail readers and Walmart shoppers. One or two words preferably that dumbs down the concept and sounds wicked snappy. "iStim" or "Kardkashian" or some shit...
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2014, 04:21:54 pm »
"Demand Incentive"

"DemInce"

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2014, 04:58:38 pm »
Counterfitness - it's a license to print your own money

Band Aid Plus - This time we feed the world and get paid for it

Pile up economics - because we all know it doesn't trickle down

Occupy the food chain



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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2014, 05:03:42 pm »
I like "pile up".

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2014, 05:11:03 pm »
I like "pile up".

Not sure I do. Just hoping to keep riff/jamming until something looks good. Does Gogira still hang around here? I think some kind of infographic may helpn and she's wicked at that shit
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2014, 05:11:48 pm »
Mountains out of manholes  :lulz:
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2014, 11:37:16 pm »
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2014, 10:52:02 pm »
Sounds like the Basic Income Guarantee.  It's an idea that has been around for a while and has been tried on a limited scale in several places.  Canada called it the Mincome.  The results when it has been tried have always been good.

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2014, 03:12:12 am »
Hmm. It might be a good idea to frame it in terms of freedom, as in freedom to fail(or, more specifically, freedom to survive failure). Generally speaking, this smacks of socialism, and the exact people who are most likely to oppose that are libertarians. It might help to highlight the liberating effect this should have on the poor, and the idea that a stronger safety net will encourage people to take risks(starting businesses, etc.)

Though one thing nags at me. Wouldn't printing lots of money cause massive inflation? Or are you talking about redistribution?
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2014, 08:46:28 am »
Hmm. It might be a good idea to frame it in terms of freedom, as in freedom to fail(or, more specifically, freedom to survive failure). Generally speaking, this smacks of socialism, and the exact people who are most likely to oppose that are libertarians. It might help to highlight the liberating effect this should have on the poor, and the idea that a stronger safety net will encourage people to take risks(starting businesses, etc.)

Though one thing nags at me. Wouldn't printing lots of money cause massive inflation? Or are you talking about redistribution?

I'm thinking it would be a prudent idea to phase in gradually, otherwise humanity in general might not be able to deal with it. Right now nobody is thinking in terms of "There's plenty of everything for everyone" Needs are more than satisfied. Wants will never be, simply because everyone wants a yacht but, collectively, we can't make enough to go round. There is enough food for every man, woman and child on this mudball to eat like fucking kings and queens but we assume food is hard to come by, because we have to pay for it. It's first degree circular logic.

Problem is, we (collectively) need to do shit to sustain this abundance. We need to work. Capitalism pays us for working and we spend that shit on food and stuff. If we didn't need and want all this shit, would we, collectively, just stop working or would we, collectively see sense and not fuck everything up completely? If you are convinced you know the answer, bear in mind that the question is hypothetical. We won't know until we try it.

However, just in case the answer is negative, cash could be pumped into the bottom in a steady stream letting it trickle up gradually, elevating standards of living, across the board. Right now our economy is set up between having billions in the bank and able to aquire anything and everything and starving to death at the other end of the scale. We don't need to take filthy rich off the table, per se. Money junkies could still be able to book trips into space and crash a Lambo every month or so or whatever the fuck they do with all that shit but there's no reason the bottom end of the scale couldn't be somewhere around what we'd term "Middle class".

Or does the global economy require the poor and starving? I know it categorically and absolutely must have a ready supply of poor and dying people, to exist in it's current, utterly retarded form but perhaps it could function more efficiently if we made all the poor and dying a fully productive resource, working 9-5 to produce more food and stuff for a fair share of the gravy?
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2014, 06:01:43 pm »
P3nT, have you seen this thing about "AuroraCoin" yet? Read the front page manifesto.

http://auroracoin.org/

Seems like a great vector for your idea.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2014, 08:32:09 pm »
So I started googling post scarcity and, as usual, it turns out a bunch of people have already worked this out. Including David Wong, back in 2010

Quote
Human society only exists because we need the things other humans produce. Mutual need is what made us gather and share resources and form the first villages. We need things, and we need other people to need the things we make so they'll be willing to give us the things we need. It's a cycle that has been running for thousands of years, and it's about to stop.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18817_5-reasons-future-will-be-ruled-by-b.s..html
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2014, 07:51:08 am »
P3nT, have you seen this thing about "AuroraCoin" yet? Read the front page manifesto.

http://auroracoin.org/

Seems like a great vector for your idea.

I'm going to dig into this more today. Iceland has done some seriously impressive things over the years and this probably deserves some attention. Almost anywhere else I'd have sniggered and shoved it into the bitcoin fuckery thread.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2014, 07:59:13 am »
Although that said, it may end up there after all:
http://www.coindesk.com/icelands-auroracoin-passes-litecoin-becomes-third-largest-altcoin-market-cap/

Quote
Auroracoin, the digital currency launched this February for use by the citizens of Iceland, has now passed litecoin to become the third-largest digital currency by market capitalization.

At press time, auroracoin had a total market capitalization of $515m, roughly $162m more than litecoinís $353m, according to data from Coinmarketcap. The price of auroracoin (AUR) currently stands at $47.08 on the companyís website.

The quick spike in interest from investors has surprised even its creator Baldur Friggjar ”ūinsson who has mixed sentiments about his coinís meteoric rise.

Speaking to CoinDesk, ”ūinsson indicated that he believes the high value could be key to convincing more Icelanders to claim and use the 31.8 auroracoins his team will disperse to citizens later this month.

Cynical aside, if I was to try a pump and dump operation with crypto-currency, then it would probably look disturbingly like this.

Quote
Fifty per cent of all auroracoins have been pre-mined, and will be given out via an ĎAirdropí to citizens on 25th March. Claimants will be required to use state-issued ID numbers in order to receive the coins.

Another eyebrow raised. Data protection issues anyone?

Quote
Community members have been noticing the resulting fluctuations, indicating that the price has been unpredictable in light of this increased attention.

On these issues too, ”ūinsson chose to take a balanced view. He recognizes that part of his goal with auroracoin was to open up Icelandic commerce to the rest of the world, and that such additions, while troubling for operations in the short-term, are necessary.

ďAuroracoin must grow bigger than just to serve the domestic economy. This is already happening,Ē he said.

Emphasis mine. Those points set a particularly worrying trend as there still seems to be little information on how this would interact with the economy of the rest of the world. Price jumps linked in the article indicate that fuckery on some scale is already occuring. With few actual regulations in place I'm finding it hard to see how this won't suffer the exact same problems as bitcoin. The key difference here is a lot of people get some to begin with.

P3nt,
Quote
Or does the global economy require the poor and starving? I know it categorically and absolutely must have a ready supply of poor and dying people, to exist in it's current, utterly retarded form but perhaps it could function more efficiently if we made all the poor and dying a fully productive resource, working 9-5 to produce more food and stuff for a fair share of the gravy?

There's a couple of answers to that. The first is "Soylent Green". The others are worse.

More seriously, I've been thinking around the idea of "trickle-up" economics. By which I mean shove a bunch of money at the bottom of the pile knowing it will be spent on whatever but that invariably the cash will still filter back up. Ford used to give workers silly discounts on cars to the point where you couldn't not buy one. I'm thinking something like that on a nation wide scale similar to the above coin idea only with actual currency.

Take a number out of my arse - £10,000.

Lets say you give every citizen of the UK £10K, today, no question, no obligation. Minimal cost based on population = 63,705,000 (approx)

63,705,000 X 10,000 = £637,050,000,000

Assume another 2% admin and corruption cost = £650000000000 ish. Now Six hundred and fifty billion-ish is a fair wedge of cash to throw around, I'd concede. Naturally prices in would inflate across the board. Past a certain point of wealth £10K doesn't mean much. To most other people it's a serious fucking help. It would directly impact the numbers of homeless and starving people. It would directly save lives. It would mean those in better circumstances get another holiday or whatever too so the pot is pretty sweet for the majority of the population. There's just that thorny issue of cost.

Can we afford to spunk six hundred and fifty billion on such a spurious exercise?
http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/wp/shaun-richards/what-is-the-cost-to-the-uk-taxpayer-of-supporting-our-banks/

Quote
The National Audit Office

The NAO has weighed into the debate this week and offered this opinion. UK taxpayers might like to make sure they are sitting down before they read this bit.

At its peak, support for the banks totalled more than £1 trillion.

Actually it peaked according to the NAO at £1.162 trillion. However then it presents some much more palatable news.

I would suggest that if we can find the cash to support corrupt casino banking systems, purchase and scrap countless IT systems (Capita ALONE must have cost the UK several billion. G4S? Atos? Numberous millions each. Tax avoidance from Vodaphone, Starbucks, Amazon and more? Billions. Literally billions.) Not to mention Trident or any number of other very fucking expensive jokes.

So with everyone 10K richer, how will the economy fare? Well it won't suffer any kind of slump. A lot of cash would get spent and substantial amount would end up back in the system where it began. The government of the day would be the most popular in decades and be able to pass any laws if felt inclined to.

I appreciate that this is totally impractical, will never happen etc, etc, I just wanted to point out how affordable it would actually be to do something like this.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 08:29:56 am by Junkenstein »
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