Author Topic: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)  (Read 6749 times)

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2014, 12:09:53 pm »
I see bitcoins and copycats as a symptom. The very fact people are fast recognising that capitalist economics isn't working. These alternatives are kinda bodges and hacks that are largely ineffective are open to a bunch of exploits and abuse. Hopefully this will change at some point and someone will come up with one that manages to supplant economics 1.0. The Napster of economics if you like.

Make no mistake - our economy will be destroyed at some point in the future. Sooner the better from where I'm sitting, given that right now, I'm pretty sure we'd be better off without it. 5 or 10 years from now, it won't be a matter of "can we survive without it?" and more a case of "You're still using money, WTF??"

As I write this I do so as one of a small minority who thinks we've probably reached post scarcity already. Another couple of years and it'll be glaringly fucking obvious, when manufacturing employment is practically nil and there's still tons of stuff being made. Once we've stopped paying for matter, that only leaves IP and that's always been a shitty parody at the expense of a crap joke anyway, hopefully it won't last the decade but, it could end up making a nuisance of itself for a few more years yet.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2014, 03:33:36 pm »
Probably need to re-read thread, could you expand on the post-scarcity stance? In some respects I can agree (cracked did an article a while ago about how porn is essentially post-scarcity) but in the standard needs department large parts of the world lack, for instance, water.

Food in the western world could be considered post scarcity, but this is made possible by vast inequalities with large parts of the rest of the world. Where food is often something of an issue.

Even assuming there is enough of everything for everyone, you now have the problem of distribution on a constant enough basis to meet the needs of everyone. Stopping people starving for a while is great but pretty fucking pointless unless the infrastructure is sustainable enough to meet those needs on a consistent basis.

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2014, 04:49:31 pm »
Post scarcity is pretty much enough of everything to go round. The holy grail is star trek replicators, this is still a couple of years off by even the most optimistic forecasts but, meantime, we have a halfway stage where basic needs can be met. That's enough food, water, clothing and shelter that no one needs to go without. Think about that for a second - right now tons of people are dying of starvation or curable diseases, and we have all the food and medicine they need.

Capitalism muddies the waters and makes it look like there isn't enough production or transportation to stick a burger in everyone's mouth but that's all down to the sole contribution of economics to 21st humanity - artificial scarcity - demand goes down so production lays off labour who can't afford to buy as much so demand goes down...

Hypothetically we can stick a couple of grand in the bank accounts of everyone who has nothing and give them the means to purchase stuff - last years smartphone and an internet connection ought to cover it. My bet is demand would rise as these people came online and started ordering up food and medicine and whatever else they need to survive til the end of the month. Production would have to scale up to meet this sudden increase in demand, resulting in hiring more workers. These new workers would now have a bit more bank and so would start buying some more luxuries. As luxury demand rises, production would have to scale up...

At the back end of production scale up, transportation and logistics would get a bite of the action. Right now global logistics is the one sector that's really coining it in from third world outsourcing with practically all "Made in America" goods being made in component form on the other side of the world then shipped back for final assembly. Most of the time they don't even bother with this nod and wink to homegrown, they'll just slap a "made in china" sticker on the box and fuck the western sweatshop premiums. My point is, usually the flow of gods is predominantly one way. The ships and planes are flying over there empty. In a world that was worth it's weight in anything other than dildoes, they would be full of burgers and penicillin.

Money is a great idea but the implementation is a throwback to the caveman days. They tried basing it on gold which was awesome until we progressed technologically to the point where there was more production than gold, so they scrapped that and based it on imaginary bullshit that still struggled to keep pace with the ever increasing levels of abundance. It's ass backwards. In order for the world to work optimally we need an infinite supply of money. Problem is we (collectively) are probably waaaay to retarded to absorb this transition overnight. The whole human race would, in all likelihood, just completely melt down and cease to do anything. Phasing it in by injecting controlled amounts into the pockets of the most needy members of our race, we might be able to effect the transition gradually from the bottom up.

Failing that we play it out to the fast approaching endgame and then hit the reset button with one of those window licking revolutions talking apes seem to love so much and then carry on repeating the whole fucking abortion all over again.

Unfortunately I seem to be the only human being on planet earth that thinks inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and pumping it into the third world makes more sense than inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and giving it to a bunch of gold plated scam artists.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2014, 05:16:08 pm »
Quote
Unfortunately I seem to be the only human being on planet earth that thinks inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and pumping it into the third world makes more sense than inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and giving it to a bunch of gold plated scam artists.

I can agree with large chunks of that, but I have to counter this with "Zimbabwe". Not alone in creating cash to try and raise living standards but the end result was less than pleasant. Brazil managed to deal with the same kind of problem with the introduction of the Real(?) and had a good degree of success.

There's another potential issue with where exactly the neediest people are located. A line of thinking could end up with "So if they lived over there, shit will be better for them". Which again, in Africa has had unfortunate consequences.

While the above may sound a little shitty, I'd rather cover as many of the potential pitfalls as possible. Last thing that anyone really wants is a system that fucks up in the exact same ways.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 05:26:10 pm »
Yeah, I hear you. My thinking is if you can target the completely fucked, the slightly less fucked will suddenly find themselves with opportunities to work, like a kickback. Post scarcity is not utopia, we still need to do stuff we don't want to, in order to keep the whole state of abundance rolling.

I also prefer to think of this globally but I'm aware the apes are still stuck in their tribalist mindset. Say, we choose a country that really needs humanitarian intervention and start with them, what's to stop those filthy ruskies or chinks undercutting us and taking all the cash we've pumped into the developing economy? Maybe some kind of trade agreement would be necessary to restrict buying to US goods only.

It stinks of narrow minded selfish bullshit but that's a massive part of what humanity is, I guess.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2014, 05:40:31 am »
http://higherperspective.com/2014/03/switzerland-pay-basic-income-2500-francs-per-month-every-adult.html
http://rt.com/news/swiss-adult-minimum-wage-794/

Hrm, Ok... so it's interesting that it's being proposed to the Swiss government, but I think this the first article (Especially considering the sources cited) twists it back into the old knee-jerk reaction memes of 'ruining the economy', etc
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2014, 08:35:02 am »
Switzerland has to propose something like this.  Otherwise, pretty much everyone who keeps the country running, the shopkeepers, cleaners, nurses etc wont be able to afford to live there, and will move to France or Germany or something, leaving the bankers and diplomats and school teachers in charge of everything.  It's ridiculously expensive to live there, and a good quarter of the labour force are of non-Swiss origin.

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2014, 11:22:42 am »
Quote
Unfortunately I seem to be the only human being on planet earth that thinks inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and pumping it into the third world makes more sense than inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and giving it to a bunch of gold plated scam artists.

I can agree with large chunks of that, but I have to counter this with "Zimbabwe". Not alone in creating cash to try and raise living standards but the end result was less than pleasant. Brazil managed to deal with the same kind of problem with the introduction of the Real(?) and had a good degree of success.

There's another potential issue with where exactly the neediest people are located. A line of thinking could end up with "So if they lived over there, shit will be better for them". Which again, in Africa has had unfortunate consequences.

While the above may sound a little shitty, I'd rather cover as many of the potential pitfalls as possible. Last thing that anyone really wants is a system that fucks up in the exact same ways.

Economics 1.0 is fucking over Zimbabwe. A result of Artificial Scarcity is not an argument against Post-Scarcity Economics.
Many other problems can be prevented by not singling out the poor. I think this can only work if everyone social stratum gets it.

It needs to become as much a Right as breathing.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2014, 12:58:55 pm »
Quote
Unfortunately I seem to be the only human being on planet earth that thinks inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and pumping it into the third world makes more sense than inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and giving it to a bunch of gold plated scam artists.

I can agree with large chunks of that, but I have to counter this with "Zimbabwe". Not alone in creating cash to try and raise living standards but the end result was less than pleasant. Brazil managed to deal with the same kind of problem with the introduction of the Real(?) and had a good degree of success.

There's another potential issue with where exactly the neediest people are located. A line of thinking could end up with "So if they lived over there, shit will be better for them". Which again, in Africa has had unfortunate consequences.

While the above may sound a little shitty, I'd rather cover as many of the potential pitfalls as possible. Last thing that anyone really wants is a system that fucks up in the exact same ways.

Economics 1.0 is fucking over Zimbabwe. A result of Artificial Scarcity is not an argument against Post-Scarcity Economics.
Many other problems can be prevented by not singling out the poor. I think this can only work if everyone social stratum gets it.

It needs to become as much a Right as breathing.

My thinking, right now is that cash doesn't trickle down, it flows up. Pump it in at the bottom and everyone will end up better off. The priority is humanitarian - elevate the lowest out of poverty but, in doing so should elevate everyone's standard of living. So we will still be better off than the third world by roughly the same factor. The only difference is now the third world have food, water, housing and maybe one or two luxury items.

Next we decide do we want to stop there or do we want to see it through to it's logical conclusion and keep making the ones at the bottom better off, given that we are all made better off as a direct result? I'm assuming the bottom tier of humanity will end up developing their own socio-economic thing, once all their time isn't taken up with the business of starving to death. I could be wrong but, if I'm not, then some sort of equilibrium may be achievable where the whole world is split into comfortably well off and filthy rich.


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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2014, 01:16:30 pm »
Quote
Unfortunately I seem to be the only human being on planet earth that thinks inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and pumping it into the third world makes more sense than inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and giving it to a bunch of gold plated scam artists.

I can agree with large chunks of that, but I have to counter this with "Zimbabwe". Not alone in creating cash to try and raise living standards but the end result was less than pleasant. Brazil managed to deal with the same kind of problem with the introduction of the Real(?) and had a good degree of success.

There's another potential issue with where exactly the neediest people are located. A line of thinking could end up with "So if they lived over there, shit will be better for them". Which again, in Africa has had unfortunate consequences.

While the above may sound a little shitty, I'd rather cover as many of the potential pitfalls as possible. Last thing that anyone really wants is a system that fucks up in the exact same ways.

Economics 1.0 is fucking over Zimbabwe. A result of Artificial Scarcity is not an argument against Post-Scarcity Economics.
Many other problems can be prevented by not singling out the poor. I think this can only work if everyone social stratum gets it.

It needs to become as much a Right as breathing.

My thinking, right now is that cash doesn't trickle down, it flows up. Pump it in at the bottom and everyone will end up better off. The priority is humanitarian - elevate the lowest out of poverty but, in doing so should elevate everyone's standard of living. So we will still be better off than the third world by roughly the same factor. The only difference is now the third world have food, water, housing and maybe one or two luxury items.

Next we decide do we want to stop there or do we want to see it through to it's logical conclusion and keep making the ones at the bottom better off, given that we are all made better off as a direct result? I'm assuming the bottom tier of humanity will end up developing their own socio-economic thing, once all their time isn't taken up with the business of starving to death. I could be wrong but, if I'm not, then some sort of equilibrium may be achievable where the whole world is split into comfortably well off and filthy rich.
I get that, I just assumed the not-dead-poor people wouldn't allow it unless they were directly getting something out of it as well. Besides, the not-dead-poor faction is tiny in comparison so it won't cost all that much. It is much easier to sell a 10 billion plan that helps everyone than a 8 billion plan that only helps the poor (directly). Most people that would actually benefit don't consider themselves poor so won't accept this plan. A lot of poor people who do admit their poorness will vote against it because they don't want the loss of status.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2014, 01:33:54 pm »
The not dead poor people will be offered paid employment. In order to service a couple of million new orders, production apparatus needs to scale up, ie. hire more labour.

The money we give to the totally fucked will end up flowing through the pockets of the partially fucked anyway.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2014, 05:45:38 pm »
The not dead poor people will be offered paid employment. In order to service a couple of million new orders, production apparatus needs to scale up, ie. hire more labour.

The money we give to the totally fucked will end up flowing through the pockets of the partially fucked anyway.

That serves as an incentive to exaggerate your fuckedness, it also adds a layer of beaurocracy to determine who deserves to be paid and who doesn't. 

Paying everyone is simpler and likely to receive broader support. 

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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2014, 05:53:03 pm »
You might well be right.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2014, 09:52:08 am »
Quote
Unfortunately I seem to be the only human being on planet earth that thinks inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and pumping it into the third world makes more sense than inventing trillions of shiny new dollars and giving it to a bunch of gold plated scam artists.

I can agree with large chunks of that, but I have to counter this with "Zimbabwe". Not alone in creating cash to try and raise living standards but the end result was less than pleasant. Brazil managed to deal with the same kind of problem with the introduction of the Real(?) and had a good degree of success.

There's another potential issue with where exactly the neediest people are located. A line of thinking could end up with "So if they lived over there, shit will be better for them". Which again, in Africa has had unfortunate consequences.

While the above may sound a little shitty, I'd rather cover as many of the potential pitfalls as possible. Last thing that anyone really wants is a system that fucks up in the exact same ways.

Economics 1.0 is fucking over Zimbabwe. A result of Artificial Scarcity is not an argument against Post-Scarcity Economics.
Many other problems can be prevented by not singling out the poor. I think this can only work if everyone social stratum gets it.

It needs to become as much a Right as breathing.

My thinking, right now is that cash doesn't trickle down, it flows up. Pump it in at the bottom and everyone will end up better off. The priority is humanitarian - elevate the lowest out of poverty but, in doing so should elevate everyone's standard of living. So we will still be better off than the third world by roughly the same factor. The only difference is now the third world have food, water, housing and maybe one or two luxury items.

Next we decide do we want to stop there or do we want to see it through to it's logical conclusion and keep making the ones at the bottom better off, given that we are all made better off as a direct result? I'm assuming the bottom tier of humanity will end up developing their own socio-economic thing, once all their time isn't taken up with the business of starving to death. I could be wrong but, if I'm not, then some sort of equilibrium may be achievable where the whole world is split into comfortably well off and filthy rich.

It occurs to me that maybe we've been looking at the economy backwards all along, if we're to use the flowing of water as a model for the movement of money. It isn't a pyramid, with the wealthy elite at the top and the workers at the bottom, and the money running downhill. It's a funnel. The narrow point may be the top of the social hierarchy, but I find the model is far more intuitive the other way around.

I mean, maybe that's what we should call this. Funnel economics. It still trickles down, but from the wide end.
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Re: LMNO (and anyone else who understands this shit)
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2014, 10:05:11 am »
I still think of it as bottom - top pyramid but whatever works for you. When I see a pyramid I see the guys at the top trying to reach higher by stealing bricks from the bottom.

That's basically economics 1.0 in a nutshell
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Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark