Author Topic: Experiments with monkeys  (Read 11296 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2014, 11:49:36 pm »
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

The phenomenon which the article Nigel posted, (which presumably you read, judging by your response?) refers to in saying "regardless of its cause, this [sex difference] raises serious questions about the robustness of the phenomenon" and "the real experiment didn't even make the point that MM wanted to make"?

You can't continue to use it as evidence for your position after it's been discredited so.

Depends on why he's (she's?) trying to advance this position.

Because every time a monkey from TDS comes over, I get hit with a fucking fire hose.  They come to teach me things, I am told, but the fire hose makes me fucking hate them, and I don't pay any attention at all to their timeless wisdom.

Needless to say, I hate them like they were Martin Bormann's personal fart catchers.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Pæs

  • James Bond-defying Shit-Volcano Trigger Device of the Next Armageddon.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 38516
  • I ain't even mad.
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2014, 11:51:43 pm »
This reminds me of a study I read where the scientists trained monkeys to believe that the ladder/banana experiment had taken place and that certain lessons (relating to learned behaviour and tradition) could be drawn from it. The scientists then severed the connection between the teachings or new beliefs and the experiment by dismissing the notion that the experiment had occurred at all and found that the monkeys, given updated information about their 'evidence', continued to operate as if the demonstrably false information were true.

Pæs

  • James Bond-defying Shit-Volcano Trigger Device of the Next Armageddon.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 38516
  • I ain't even mad.
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2014, 11:52:15 pm »
Trust me, I read a study about this stuff.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2014, 11:56:42 pm »
Trust me, I read a study about this stuff.

Me, too.

But citations are not forthcoming.  You People can just look it up yourself.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2014, 04:15:43 am »
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

It outlines a made-up behavioral pattern.

It's one of those anecdotes that doesn't bear repeating because it's not a real phenomenon.

It's like those "Teachable Moments" that the mommy bloggers make up out of whole cloth to convey a self-righteous image and garner attention.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2014, 04:16:24 am »
This reminds me of a study I read where the scientists trained monkeys to believe that the ladder/banana experiment had taken place and that certain lessons (relating to learned behaviour and tradition) could be drawn from it. The scientists then severed the connection between the teachings or new beliefs and the experiment by dismissing the notion that the experiment had occurred at all and found that the monkeys, given updated information about their 'evidence', continued to operate as if the demonstrably false information were true.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2014, 04:17:40 am »
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

So, it's fake, but we should treat it as real?

Sort of like the free market, then.

 :spittake:
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


omnihil

  • Known
  • *
  • Posts: 262
  • SPAG
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2014, 07:54:47 am »
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

It outlines a made-up behavioral pattern.

It's one of those anecdotes that doesn't bear repeating because it's not a real phenomenon.

It's like those "Teachable Moments" that the mommy bloggers make up out of whole cloth to convey a self-righteous image and garner attention.

Not exactly what I meant, but I agree with you on what you said.  I'm not saying that even though the whole thing was fiction, we should treat it like it's real.  I'm saying the fiction paints a picture of a behavior that does actually exist in people.  Much like many fictional movies will make people think about behaviors in themselves they may not have been previously aware of, because they were able to relate to the characters in the movie, and the situations that they found themselves in, how they reacted, etc.  The movie plot should not be treated as fact, but the message in the plot is relevant and helps build perspective.  However, the fact that the "experiment" was posted to trick people does disqualify it as a legitimate fictional art, but that's a different argument. 

So what I meant was, oh well too bad it's fake, but at least it gets the point across about behavior that people actually partake in.  There are truly people out there who simply say "Praise Jesus" because they were taught to do so, even if they have a warped understanding of his teachings.  They may not even believe in him, but just adopted the personality and lifestyle.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 08:03:26 am by omnihil »

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 87742
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2014, 01:53:03 pm »
Ok, you seem to be saying that your example is false, but the behavior shown is true.

In that case, you should really be looking for an example that is, in fact, true.  That would bolster your case, adding evidence to your argument.

What you have now is best known as "truthiness", in that since it feels true, it must actually be true.  This can be demonstrably shown as false, since it also "feels" like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, for example.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2014, 02:20:31 pm »
Alright then, should've known that something posted in the form of a meme-image with text on it would be a fabrication on the internet.  But like what the Good Reverend Roger said, it's the message that's more important.  It clearly outlines a behavioral pattern that describes the mutations apparent in many ways of life, such as religions, like Christianity for example, which most likely is barely even recognizable to the people who first practiced esoteric Christian pseudo-Jewish magic stuff.

Mainly, I just think if more people thought about the phenomenon occurring in this "experiment", it would be a good thing for the thinkers out there.  A fable if you will.

It outlines a made-up behavioral pattern.

It's one of those anecdotes that doesn't bear repeating because it's not a real phenomenon.

It's like those "Teachable Moments" that the mommy bloggers make up out of whole cloth to convey a self-righteous image and garner attention.

Not exactly what I meant, but I agree with you on what you said.  I'm not saying that even though the whole thing was fiction, we should treat it like it's real.  I'm saying the fiction paints a picture of a behavior that does actually exist in people.  Much like many fictional movies will make people think about behaviors in themselves they may not have been previously aware of, because they were able to relate to the characters in the movie, and the situations that they found themselves in, how they reacted, etc.  The movie plot should not be treated as fact, but the message in the plot is relevant and helps build perspective.  However, the fact that the "experiment" was posted to trick people does disqualify it as a legitimate fictional art, but that's a different argument. 

So what I meant was, oh well too bad it's fake, but at least it gets the point across about behavior that people actually partake in.  There are truly people out there who simply say "Praise Jesus" because they were taught to do so, even if they have a warped understanding of his teachings.  They may not even believe in him, but just adopted the personality and lifestyle.

So far, it's just bad signal.  An Andrew Wakefield running around the internet, posing as science.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

omnihil

  • Known
  • *
  • Posts: 262
  • SPAG
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2014, 07:29:07 pm »
I understand your points, and just feel like miscommunication is what's taking place here.

I have already listed a real world example.  Christianity, well known for it's zealots worldwide, is in fact an example of humans acting as the monkeys did, blindly following the rituals and mantras because they were taught them by their predecessors.  Based on my observations of many people in society, not everyone who claims Jesus to be their savior received this information from a "life-changing" revelation as brought to them by an angel in a dream, or while meditating on a sunrise, felt the voice of Jesus Christ guiding them to salvation.  Instead, they simply enjoy the company and acceptance of the other people at Church when they do so.

I know, I know, who gives a shit.  This was meant to be a simple point, a mere statement, that I'm having to draw out to try to communicate effectively, so all in all this argument isn't that meaningful.  "Who gives a shit?"  This sentence in itself is a colloquialism, and those are often adopted by people without thinking about the origin of the statement.  It is common for people who are learning new languages, to not understand the local dialects and colloquialisms, because they are used to communicate meanings that are not literal translations of the phrase.  Colloquialisms are other examples of how people accept behaviors as others, and repeat those behaviors without knowing the origin of the behavior. 

So forget the monkey experiment entirely for a moment.  The message I was trying to communicate is:  "Sometimes people just copy others peoples behavior, without considering other options or understanding the origin of their behavior."  If you don't agree with this, then perhaps you haven't studied psychology or observed human behavior on that level.  Now then, it just so happens, that this is the message that the "monkey experiment meme" was trying to communicate, with a fictional illustration of the behavior as performed by monkeys in a fictional cage with a ladder.  Just because a turtle never raced a hare, doesn't mean that sometimes taking your time is a better way to accomplish a goal than racing through the motions as fast as you can.  If upon discovering that a turtle never raced a hare, a person decided that there's no wisdom in patience and focus because the story wasn't true, they would be limiting themselves.

But honestly, who gives a shit.  Just trying to clearly communicate what I was saying, not trying to say this is very important to understand.

Hoopla!

  • gives people the beeps, and most certainly
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 30639
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 07:30:21 pm »
This was meant to be a simple point, a mere statement, that I'm having to draw out to try to communicate effectively, so all in all this argument isn't that meaningful. 

Welcome to PD.com
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 87742
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 07:34:03 pm »
If that's all you were trying to say, you could have just done this:

Quote from: omnihil
Asch conformity experiments, AMIRITE?

Pæs

  • James Bond-defying Shit-Volcano Trigger Device of the Next Armageddon.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 38516
  • I ain't even mad.
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2014, 08:42:42 pm »
Do you really believe that practice of Christianity is simply mirroring for the sake of 'doing it the way it's always been done' rather than because it meets other needs of the practitioner?

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Experiments with monkeys
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2014, 08:51:17 pm »
I understand your points, and just feel like miscommunication is what's taking place here.

I have already listed a real world example.  Christianity, well known for it's zealots worldwide, is in fact an example of humans acting as the monkeys did, blindly following the rituals and mantras because they were taught them by their predecessors. 

Wow.  Incorrect AND offensive, all wrapped up in one neat package.

Let's try this one:

Basic mechanical knowledge is passed on from journeyman to apprentice.  The apprentice is not taught the underlying theory of, for example, fluid dynamics, because it isn't necessary.  That is learned, if ever, far later in one's career.  What the apprentice needs to know is how to space the impeller so that a pump will operate properly.

Therefore, maintenance is bad.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.