Author Topic: PUAHate shooting incident  (Read 9077 times)

Cain

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2014, 01:59:58 pm »
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2014, 02:01:26 pm »
In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

... by telling them they're to blame.  :kingmeh:

Saw a killer on FB yesterday. Can't remember the exact wording but it was to do with the fact that a small percentage of men were wankers, would you eat a bowl of something if a small percentage were shit. My reaction was not sympathetic or supportive it was "go fuck yourself"

If the problem is all men then quit whining and suck it up, cos nothing is going to change. Ever. All us men won't let it. Truth is it isn't all men, some men are actually behind this agenda and without that there would be no progress. So it's a work in progress, fine. So shit could be progressing faster, granted. But cutting their support off at the legs by alienating the ones who are on their side maybe isn't the best way to precipitate this?
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2014, 02:19:36 pm »
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

That's all well and good but could you boil his motivation down to 140 characters please, it makes it easier for the microblogging platform to discuss.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2014, 02:20:35 pm »
Ok, this explains all the notallmen stuff I've been seeing lately (mostly jokes)
Especially by those that initially read it as 'no tall men' instead of 'not all men'
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2014, 02:21:12 pm »
In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

... by telling them they're to blame.  :kingmeh:

Saw a killer on FB yesterday. Can't remember the exact wording but it was to do with the fact that a small percentage of men were wankers, would you eat a bowl of something if a small percentage were shit. My reaction was not sympathetic or supportive it was "go fuck yourself"

If the problem is all men then quit whining and suck it up, cos nothing is going to change. Ever. All us men won't let it. Truth is it isn't all men, some men are actually behind this agenda and without that there would be no progress. So it's a work in progress, fine. So shit could be progressing faster, granted. But cutting their support off at the legs by alienating the ones who are on their side maybe isn't the best way to precipitate this?

You seem to imply there's a way for a woman to easily identify which man might be a danger to them, in a culture that sends bad signal about cross-gender power dynamics 24/7.

A woman feels anxious and unsafe in an environment that largely portrays women as second-class citizens and posessions, where any random man could pose a threat.

When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2014, 02:31:46 pm »
I think you've pushed his position a little further than intended.

I think what Pent was saying was more that you don't make progress by actively alienating people trying to help. In fact, you probably make the opposite outcome happen because you've not really convinced or communicated with anyone, you've just pissed them off.

Again, anecdotal for what it's worth, but I've been on the end of some particularly scathing attacks of late over behaviours I've exhibited(and I must add, endevoured to correct over the years) and it's not made me more sympathetic or empathetic with women, it's made me think that some women who I previously considered friends and respected are actually a bit fucking crazy. This is probably quite an unfair assessment but I'm unsure how many personal attacks you really should endure before saying enough.


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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2014, 02:34:22 pm »
When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

Depends entirely on how that is expressed.

The example pent posted was Literally the cliché MEN = SHIT

In a discourse that actually has an interest in conveying a message, of planting it in a persons conciousness and getting it to take root the key part is in establishing a dialogue.

The above example puts a swift end to anyone listening to anyone else.

It is why you have to question the motives of those who  profess social change on these sites, if they actually wanted to make a difference than their approach would be different.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2014, 02:35:10 pm »
I think you've pushed his position a little further than intended.

I think what Pent was saying was more that you don't make progress by actively alienating people trying to help. In fact, you probably make the opposite outcome happen because you've not really convinced or communicated with anyone, you've just pissed them off.

Again, anecdotal for what it's worth, but I've been on the end of some particularly scathing attacks of late over behaviours I've exhibited(and I must add, endevoured to correct over the years) and it's not made me more sympathetic or empathetic with women, it's made me think that some women who I previously considered friends and respected are actually a bit fucking crazy. This is probably quite an unfair assessment but I'm unsure how many personal attacks you really should endure before saying enough.
this.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2014, 02:38:44 pm »
I feel that part of the issue is that both parties have people who so blatantly think that their particular point of view is correct. 

The male point of view is obscured by men who say well all this stuff is true because men are better than women and more important to society and all that crap.

On the other side, there's women who think the only way to fix the issue is by handicapping all men.  A lot of them also have conflicting views on what equality should entail.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2014, 02:42:12 pm »
When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

(snip)

It is why you have to question the motives of those who  profess social change on these sites, if they actually wanted to make a difference than their approach would be different.

Another thing I seem to be seeing is a big desire to talk about the problem yet anyone who tries to discuss possible solutions seems to be someone's enemy, for some reason. Talking about how serious the problem is has become more important than actively trying to solve the serious problem.

To me, this is the mental equivalent of being in a house that is on fire and insisting it's better to run around inside and panic than get the fuck out of the door. Then beating anyone who tries to leave because they "Just don't understand how serious the problem is"
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2014, 02:48:39 pm »
In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

... by telling them they're to blame.  :kingmeh:

Saw a killer on FB yesterday. Can't remember the exact wording but it was to do with the fact that a small percentage of men were wankers, would you eat a bowl of something if a small percentage were shit. My reaction was not sympathetic or supportive it was "go fuck yourself"

If the problem is all men then quit whining and suck it up, cos nothing is going to change. Ever. All us men won't let it. Truth is it isn't all men, some men are actually behind this agenda and without that there would be no progress. So it's a work in progress, fine. So shit could be progressing faster, granted. But cutting their support off at the legs by alienating the ones who are on their side maybe isn't the best way to precipitate this?

You seem to imply there's a way for a woman to easily identify which man might be a danger to them, in a culture that sends bad signal about cross-gender power dynamics 24/7.

A woman feels anxious and unsafe in an environment that largely portrays women as second-class citizens and posessions, where any random man could pose a threat.

When she tries to express that anxiety, you're telling her to go fuck herself.  Nice.

Most women I know seem quite happy and relaxed about life, having mostly non traumatic encounters with men. Most guys are the same. Now and again I encounter some nutjob (not as much IRL as online) who thinks everyone is out to get them and they'll be attacked if they walk outside the door. The truth is, it rarely fucking happens. It makes the headlines because "Today 7 billion-odd people went about their day quite happily and didn't get raped or beaten up or killed" is the kind of news that nobody is interested in.

So yeah, there's a huge issue with women not getting quite as much money and other shit as guys but let's put it in perspective - the general trend is toward things gradually improving and long may it continue to both do so and become less gradual. Meanwhile the rape and murder thing is an outlier and I take personal offence to the "this male raped a female this one time so I don't trust you, personally" - bullshit.

Someone thinks that way then, yeah, fuck 'em. Most people don't. Stick the shoe on the other foot - this one time a gay guy raped a straight guy - how should I feel about all the gays?
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2014, 03:10:31 pm »
Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

As far as I've experienced it, it's more that they're trying to describe the culture they're living in, one that is inundated by insititional misogyny.  And of course, it's isn't all men.  But that doesn't change what they experience.

And it's not just about rape. It's about what it really means to be living as a woman in a world that treats her as second class.

But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2014, 03:31:45 pm »
I don't take much interest in anything like that. I draw a line in the sand and on one side are fighters who I respect and on the other side are victims who I pity. Someone gets passed up for promotion and it's all "poor me, the odds are stacked against me. Cruel world"

Someone else gets their legs blown off by a landmine and they come back stronger (only minus the legs) The only difference, it seems to me, is the person's attitude. Victim or fighter?

There's not a whole hell of a lot I can do to help either but one is annoying and whiny and the other is generally fun to be around. Make your drama about men and women or gays and straights or blind v's deaf or whatever and you'll get a whole bunch of fucks on both sides of the argument, whining about how they're worse off. Who's got it tougher. Meanwhile there's a lot of folks on both sides who aren't even arguing about who has it worse, because they're too busy taking care of business.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2014, 03:33:54 pm »
But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2014, 04:17:35 pm »
In this thread, five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis and one of them concludes the correct response is go fuck yourself.

Every woman you know knows someone who was raped. I defy you to find a single woman so sheltered this is not the case. Every woman has had someone skeev on her at one point or another, or give her shit for not meeting some arbitrary standard of attractiveness for her right to consume oxygen in public. It's not all men, it's not most men, but it's everywhere in the culture and you don't see it because you don't have to. This guy killed people because he listened to a culture that says he as a cishetwhitemiddleclassmale is the protagonist and is entitled to come out on top and get a pretty girl as a trophy. Not everyone who is infected by that awful meme ends up a murderer, but FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK CAN WE STOP SPREADING THAT MEME AROUND ALREADY? IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?
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