Author Topic: PUAHate shooting incident  (Read 9079 times)

Cain

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2014, 04:35:10 pm »
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2014, 04:46:27 pm »
I saw that meme as a quick and dirty way of showing why NotAllMen doesn't actually make a difference to the experience.

A better version I saw was, "10% of this bowl of M&Ms are poison. Go ahead, eat a handful."  To this, I'd add, "eat a handful every day for your entire life."

The percentages might be inaccurate, but the apprehension that today might be THAT DAY would certainly not be diminished if I was "comforted" by someone dismissing me with #NotAllM&Ms.

Especially if it seemed like there was a possibility to REDUCE THE AMOUNT of poisoned M&Ms, but no one would do it because they just couldn't see the problem. After all, they eat Skittles.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2014, 04:55:24 pm »
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041
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Junkenstein

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2014, 05:05:24 pm »
Q.G / Sita / Nigel / Anyone else with similar genitalia - I can't overstate how much your perspective is worth in this thread.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2014, 05:12:39 pm »
Same here. I don't want to speak for you, or assume I know what you've experienced.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2014, 05:18:50 pm »
I don't take much interest in anything like that. I draw a line in the sand and on one side are fighters who I respect and on the other side are victims who I pity. Someone gets passed up for promotion and it's all "poor me, the odds are stacked against me. Cruel world"

Someone else gets their legs blown off by a landmine and they come back stronger (only minus the legs) The only difference, it seems to me, is the person's attitude. Victim or fighter?


You're equating traumatic response to attitude? I kind of think that operant conditioning runs a little deeper than looking in the mirror and saying, "jeepers, you're great and nothing's going to hold you down."

Some "fighter's" get their legs blown off by a land-mine, strap on their PMA and come back stronger...and by stronger, I mean, all smiles and affirmations until they're rolling down the road one day and see a mound of dirt that causes them to come a bit unglued. Is that a function of some erroneous conclusions that all mounds of dirt blow legs off, or something a bit more on the operant level?

Is it really possible to talk meaningfully about these sorts of subjects without putting that distinction out there front and center?
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2014, 05:29:42 pm »
Quote
For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

Just wanted to add to this. The reporting, prosecution and conviction rates for rape have always been horrifically low. And yet rape is a serious criminal offence western nations and many others. There is a fundamental problem with the law not being enforced effectively in this area and I'd suggest that this is a major societal factor. Change the rates for reporting, prosecution and conviction upward and I bet you'll see a big positive change across society.

This leads to the problem of how many police forces act like old boys clubs and makes me consider the police as probably a key part of the problem too. Given some of the tales I've heard when people have tried to report rape ("What were you wearing / you asked for it go away) I'm  on uncertain ground again. Social media may force action on a subject but there's that whole fucking "innocent until proven guility" thing. How can awareness against an event/person be raised without causing potential mistrial / trial by media problems? Again, no idea but I'd think perhaps rape / sexual offences units to shift to a largely women orientated / operated / controlled situation may see some progress. With appropriate funding, naturally. I doubt it would fix much but it's a starting point.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 05:43:02 pm »
I don't take much interest in anything like that. I draw a line in the sand and on one side are fighters who I respect and on the other side are victims who I pity. Someone gets passed up for promotion and it's all "poor me, the odds are stacked against me. Cruel world"

Someone else gets their legs blown off by a landmine and they come back stronger (only minus the legs) The only difference, it seems to me, is the person's attitude. Victim or fighter?


You're equating traumatic response to attitude? I kind of think that operant conditioning runs a little deeper than looking in the mirror and saying, "jeepers, you're great and nothing's going to hold you down."

Some "fighter's" get their legs blown off by a land-mine, strap on their PMA and come back stronger...and by stronger, I mean, all smiles and affirmations until they're rolling down the road one day and see a mound of dirt that causes them to come a bit unglued. Is that a function of some erroneous conclusions that all mounds of dirt blow legs off, or something a bit more on the operant level?

Is it really possible to talk meaningfully about these sorts of subjects without putting that distinction out there front and center?

What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2014, 05:52:55 pm »
If I'm reading this right, p3nt, you're butthurt that an experience you had that, by your own admission, has nothing to do with this issue, wasn't accepted as equivalent when trying to discuss it? And your conclusion isn't that gender violence should stop, it's that people need to learn how to deal with it and be better for it?

Is that what you're saying? Because that sounds nauseating.
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Junkenstein

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2014, 05:56:38 pm »
Quote
The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2014, 06:08:11 pm »
P3nt, the fuck are you on?

THE GOAL IS FOR PEOPLE TO STOP PERPETUATING A CULTURE THAT TREATS [X] LIKE SHIT.

That is exactly the goal. If you're not up for it that is seriously deranged. It's not an easy fight, and it's not a fast one, and it's not one that ever is completely accomplished because there's always some asshole who really can't wrap their head around not being an asshole, but that doesn't make it an unworthy goal. You can say it's not your fight, because reasons, but all those reasons boil down to "I don't have to care because it's not happening to me." And yes, "I don't want to get involved because I was not invited in a way I like" is a permutation of that. You have the privilege of ignoring this shit if you want to. Not because you're free to do as thou wilt, but because it doesn't affect you. If I choose not to give a fuck about feminism, I still have to deal with shitheels who were never taught what no means. Even if they're not rapists. I cannot stress that enough. Go actually read some of the long form YesAllWomen essays and tell me this is all blown out of proportion or a matter of bad attitude. Shit is fucked up and bullshit, and we have to talk about it or it will never get better.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2014, 07:44:48 pm »
In other news, Excene Cervenka (Co-Singer of X, legendary LA punk band) has aparently gone crazy, and believe the shooting (as well as Sandy Hook and, of course, 9/11) was a hoax.

http://radio.com/2014/05/28/80s-punk-star-exene-cervenka-claims-santa-barbara-shooting-was-a-hoax/


Sigh.

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2014, 07:55:33 pm »
BREAKING NEWS:

ENTROPY VANQUISHED BY VANISHING VICTIMS!

NOTHING SET TO CHANGE FOR THE NEXT FEW MILLENIA!

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« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:58:54 pm by Alty »
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2014, 07:59:02 pm »
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2014, 08:00:21 pm »
Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

As far as I've experienced it, it's more that they're trying to describe the culture they're living in, one that is inundated by insititional misogyny.  And of course, it's isn't all men.  But that doesn't change what they experience.

And it's not just about rape. It's about what it really means to be living as a woman in a world that treats her as second class.

But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.

How dare these bitches alienate the men who would otherwise be on their side by relating their experiences?? If they would just SHUT UP, the Good Guys would handle it.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”