PUAHate shooting incident

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

As far as I've experienced it, it's more that they're trying to describe the culture they're living in, one that is inundated by insititional misogyny.  And of course, it's isn't all men.  But that doesn't change what they experience.

And it's not just about rape. It's about what it really means to be living as a woman in a world that treats her as second class.

But I can see we're on two sides of the canyon, here.  So I'll stop.

Yeah, this.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In this thread, five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis and one of them concludes the correct response is go fuck yourself.

Every woman you know knows someone who was raped. I defy you to find a single woman so sheltered this is not the case. Every woman has had someone skeev on her at one point or another, or give her shit for not meeting some arbitrary standard of attractiveness for her right to consume oxygen in public. It's not all men, it's not most men, but it's everywhere in the culture and you don't see it because you don't have to. This guy killed people because he listened to a culture that says he as a cishetwhitemiddleclassmale is the protagonist and is entitled to come out on top and get a pretty girl as a trophy. Not everyone who is infected by that awful meme ends up a murderer, but FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK CAN WE STOP SPREADING THAT MEME AROUND ALREADY? IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

And this.

I've been molested (two different unrelated adult men, at the ages of five and six) raped (age 15) raped again repeatedly in my early 20's by my first husband, sexually assaulted by a stranger within the last three years, and those are just the most egregious of my experiences; yes, every woman you know has been sexually harassed hundreds of times. When Twid was saying "now I know how women feel" because some guy asked him for a cock shot I restrained myself from LOLOLOLOL because I know that his level of affront was simply because it's so unusual for him to be asked such things, as opposed to being female and existing, which makes it a totally routine part of life to turn down people asking for inappropriate things.

I am also a fairly happy person who is mostly content with her lot in life, inconceivable as that may sound. Most of us are. The insanely pervasive sexism that permeates our lives and culture is bad and should stop, but you know, mostly things are OK.

Should I be sorry that telling men what real life is like for women makes some of them uncomfortable? I'm not sure about that. Maybe they should be uncomfortable, and instead of turning away from the thing that makes them uncomfortable, they should look at it a little harder.

[LMNO]

Should I be sorry that telling men what real life is like for women makes some of them uncomfortable? I'm not sure about that. Maybe they should be uncomfortable, and instead of turning away from the thing that makes them uncomfortable, they should look at it a little harder.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Have you sat down and read the #YesAllWomen stories?  Because it's sounding like you think it's one big man-bashing party fest.

I read through that, and there were about two posts (by the same person) that I thought were bullshit.

Other than that, no, it wasn't tumblr.

Just my $0.02

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I'm just quoting this pile of steaming shit because I'm so agog. Pent, you need your head checked.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hold on, let me just shrug into my rape-proof jacket.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm just gonna say one more thing, then I'm heading for the bunker.

If you say you don't give a fuck about someone's opinion, or anyone's opinion, then don't get pissed off when your words bring any number of odious opinions concerning yourself, back in your direction.

Know what I mean?

[Junkenstein]

What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I'm just quoting this pile of steaming shit because I'm so agog. Pent, you need your head checked.

I hesitate to comment somewhat, but I think Pent is making a point somewhere there, it's just being communicated badly.

E-prime what he said, and consider it in general good things/bad things terms, and I kind of get the mindset he's trying to portray. The right approach? I honestly don't know but focusing on how to fix things doesn't seem like the worst route to take? I'll shut up now and let him speak for himself because I've had various angles on this shit in my head all day and I'm probably working with some very bad ideas in places.

[Pæs]

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I am actually curious how this intersects with your recent economics kick. Did I misinterpret trickle-up to require those with the majority of the wealth to aid in correcting a social power imbalance by surrendering some of their social power (cash to the poor in this case)?

What's different about your gender-related social power that makes this not your problem?

[P3nT4gR4m]

The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.

Defo! Thing that strikes me is this thread is about "PUAHate shooting incident" and I'm picturing this poor kid who aint a woman. So by definition he, what? Can't understand what it's like to be her, right? And he's ugly and fat and stupid and awkward, or he certainly feels that way. He's left out of the shit that normal people take for granted. I can see how this messes up his head. He feels marginalised. He's a young man. That feeling is just as likely to channel in the direction of anger. Of rage. Normal people do not do what this kid done. Takes a broken mind to do it. But it all started with a victim mentality. Stuck on the sidelines. Nobody knows what it's like to be poor little him.

Anyone who tries to help this kid, at the start, they could be saving two lives really, if you look at it that way, but he's a monster. He's a PUA scumbag. Doesn't deserve saved, does he? Deserves to be called "creepy rape guy" for his misguided, botched attempts to get his fair share of playtime  in the mating game that most "normal" people take for granted but his pain is nothing. It's invalid because nothing matches the level of suffering that group-b goes through. He needs to be shouted at and vilified and marginalised more, cos that's the solution, right? That totally helps the fuck out of everything?

[Faust]

five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041

Yes, everything you have said there is true. It's researched backed up and shows exactly the percentage problem, maybe not even enough of it because of how much goes unreported.

It's very important, it's something everyone should know. But it's not what was said.

The example  was the men = shit

What you said in the quoted post makes me listen, what the latter does is make me stop listening.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

Agree 1000% with this.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041

Okay, it's hopeless.

[Faust]

Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

And in contrast to a culture that tells white men what they are entitled to, you get a narrative that says women shouldn't be in positions of responsibility, that black men should not be entitled to the same kind of things a white man should.

For every one white squeeky voiced shooter that explodes, you get 10,000 disenfranchised people that get caught up in implosive behaviour, petty crime, dangerous drugs and a narrative of hopelessness.

It is socially acceptable to be a rich white boy who shoots up a school who has never gone to jail. It is socially acceptable to be a drug addict black boy in a gang who has been in jail by the time he is 16.

It's not just acceptable, it's encouraged.