Author Topic: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread  (Read 10501 times)

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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2014, 05:39:00 pm »
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.

It's not only based on the social dynamic of wolves, it's based on an artificial and forced captive social dynamic of strange wolves forced together in confinement that doesn't occur naturally in the wild at all.

And it doesn't occur in people. I wish we could just scrub the idea of "alpha" being applied to human beings from our consciousness altogether. It's wrong, and it causes people to think of human dynamics in a wrong way.

By the same token, something that can be kinda looked at that way has permeated vast swathes of our social psychology or whatever correct terminology applies to "the way things work between humans" I don't think the alpha wolves science guys instigated the effect. I think there were probably guys who fit the description of "alpha", existent in societies a long time before all that shenanigans.

Maybe the fact that the wolves were thrown into an unnatural grouping of complete strangers is indicative of the kind of group dynamics that can develop in the interactions of some mammals when exposed to this - room full of strangers - scenario?
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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2014, 05:55:29 pm »
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.

It's not only based on the social dynamic of wolves, it's based on an artificial and forced captive social dynamic of strange wolves forced together in confinement that doesn't occur naturally in the wild at all.

And it doesn't occur in people. I wish we could just scrub the idea of "alpha" being applied to human beings from our consciousness altogether. It's wrong, and it causes people to think of human dynamics in a wrong way.

By the same token, something that can be kinda looked at that way has permeated vast swathes of our social psychology or whatever correct terminology applies to "the way things work between humans" I don't think the alpha wolves science guys instigated the effect. I think there were probably guys who fit the description of "alpha", existent in societies a long time before all that shenanigans.

Maybe the fact that the wolves were thrown into an unnatural grouping of complete strangers is indicative of the kind of group dynamics that can develop in the interactions of some mammals when exposed to this - room full of strangers - scenario?

"Alpha" as it's defined among animals does not happen in primates. Faux pop-sci twats woth a gimmick to sell decided to use it as a fulcrum for their moneymaking "guides" and it seeped into the general culture by way of plying male insecurity.
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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2014, 05:59:23 pm »
I would suggest that the artificial imposition of such power heirarchies in the standard Western business model has had some conditioned effect in a large number of humans.  We may not be "hardwired" for such behaviors, but it sure as hell expresses itself quite often, at least in my experience (anectdotal).

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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2014, 05:59:55 pm »
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2014, 06:01:09 pm »
Ah.  Gotcha.  Because of quantums.

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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2014, 06:01:29 pm »
Needless to say, this drives biologists nuts in the same kind of way chemists are irritated by the widespread and completely erroneous use of the words "chemicals" and "toxins" by the general public.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2014, 06:02:55 pm »
Ah.  Gotcha.  Because of quantums.

So many quantums. Plus also exponential and organic.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2014, 06:06:27 pm »
It's so ingrained at this point we should just give up.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2014, 06:07:04 pm »
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?
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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2014, 06:07:35 pm »
It's so ingrained at this point we should just give up.

That's just Darwinism at work, that is.



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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2014, 06:08:22 pm »
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?

They get stressed out. Labs are not where you want to be studying primate hierarchical behavior.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2014, 06:10:19 pm »
Actually, I misspoke. Primates do have alphas (in the sense of highest ranking) but that is applicable only when looking at a single troupe, and is comparable to, say, a family with a head of household.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2014, 06:15:36 pm »
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?

They get stressed out. Labs are not where you want to be studying primate hierarchical behavior.

Yeah, but surely if you study it in the wild it's more of a natural (extended family?) interaction. The thing with the wolves and the aberrant social conventions. That's what I think we're seeing a bit of in humans. We've developed abstract reasoning but society has evolved really quick and we're living in massive, utterly non-primate groups now. None of this has any precedent, outside insect colonies and they don't got the neocortex to be relevant.

I get that this isn't biologically programmed, it's a function of extended intellect. It's part psychology and part sociology that probably only small inklings of can be gleaned from studying animals at all.
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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2014, 08:12:47 pm »
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?

They get stressed out. Labs are not where you want to be studying primate hierarchical behavior.

Yeah, but surely if you study it in the wild it's more of a natural (extended family?) interaction. The thing with the wolves and the aberrant social conventions. That's what I think we're seeing a bit of in humans. We've developed abstract reasoning but society has evolved really quick and we're living in massive, utterly non-primate groups now. None of this has any precedent, outside insect colonies and they don't got the neocortex to be relevant.

I get that this isn't biologically programmed, it's a function of extended intellect. It's part psychology and part sociology that probably only small inklings of can be gleaned from studying animals at all.

If you want to study it in the wild, you do what Robert Sapolsky and other primatologists did, you go to Africa and observe them. The book is called "A Primate's Memoir".

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the "natural" vs. "unnatural" distinction; human beings evolved in large primate groups, that's why we have large primate brains that can track hundreds of social connections. The best animals to observe for studying these interactions are humans.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2014, 08:23:54 pm »
We may live in large cities, but if you look at the habits of most humans, we actually circulate in a smaller community inside the city. Our neighborhood, workplace, gym, school, bar... these are the places we interact with people, and we typically interact with the same people over and over and over again. We form social groups of up to a couple hundred people, with a few hundred more people we are familiar with but don't interact with often.

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.