Author Topic: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem  (Read 2124 times)

Q. G. Pennyworth

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There was a lot of "so what do we do?" talk when the PUA etc. reaction threads went up, and I was in the middle of some mads and wasn't super helpful. So, I'm going to lay out a couple little pointers that I believe to be accurate (ladies and others who have to deal with this bullshit, please let me know how close to the mark this is) and then I will share with you a story of a dude doing it right, possibly without even realizing it. These guidelines are intended for a general audience, I believe most of the dudes on this board are already basically following them.

1) Respect women's space. Women are used to getting their physical space invaded and nobody likes it. When dealing with strangers, the rule of thumb is two or three feet separating you (with obvious exceptions for crowded trains, etc.)

2) Respect women's feels. There's a lot of bad signal about women and their feelings, don't contribute to it. Let women have their space to be angry or sad or whatever. Don't tell them they're crazy or god help you on their period just because they are having a bout of feels. Do not assume that you know what caused the feels, or that you are the person to solve them. Sometimes we need space to have feelings in. Also, don't tell ladies on the street to smile if they're scowling, trust that they have their reasons.

3) Respect polite and soft "no"s. Many women learn the lesson that asserting themselves means getting hollered at, so they resort to soft "no"s, like retreating or creating excuses. It is not your fault this is how women have been trained to act, it is the fault of the people who hollered at them. Do not contribute by pressing the issue or challenging excuses. Obviously this does not apply when talking about workplace communication.

4) Respect their body language and what they say. It's not hard to read whether a woman is into you hitting on her. Don't hit on women who aren't interested. It's a terrible goddamn idea. If you thought she was interested and it turns out you were wrong, you were wrong. She's not a bitch.

5) Assume allegations of rape and sexual misconduct are credible. It's hard not to make excuses when the people accused are friends or people we look up to, but the stats are very clear that false allegations are statistically rare, and it's far more likely that a woman will say nothing than a woman will make something up.

6) Listen when a woman is willing to communicate how you violated her boundaries. It's a very difficult thing to talk about and most women will not take it on themselves to explain what went wrong and how you can do better next time. Not every woman has the same boundaries, and crossing lines is not the same as assault or rape, but listening to where things took a left turn can help you be a better guy.
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Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2014, 04:24:36 pm »
The story:

This past weekend I was up at a defunct race track in New Hampshire where my husband was playing in a poker tournament. I brought my laptop to work on some Big Words and some books to work on a GURPS campaign I'm going to run. I forgot to pack the power cord for my laptop, because I am a moron, and wound up outside with some books on a patch of grass in the sunshine.
A guy walked up and asked if this was my private beach. He had two beers with him. I closed the book and said "just for today." He offered me a beer, which I declined, and he said "I saw you over here, and I thought 'there's someone who might want some company, or not...'"  I said sure, and he sat three feet away. We spent about an hour talking, about horses and tabletop roleplaying (he knew about larps but not dice rolling) about our kids, the weather, whatever. He never called me pretty or complimented my appearance. Our physical contact was limited to a handshake, which I initiated.
It was exactly what an interaction with a strange man should be.
We got kicked off the grass, because apparently we're not allowed there, and it wasn't til we got in the shade that I realized I was sunburned all to hell.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 04:26:40 pm »
Talk to stranger, get burned.

 :lulz:
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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 04:27:34 pm »
I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 04:39:40 pm »
I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 04:46:59 pm »
I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.

Fuck that noise.  I act decently because I wish to be a good person.  And because The Terrible Old Man would haunt my bedroom if I didn't.

In fact, you are morally required to be decent to people, and to be nice to them in inverse proportion to their wealth.  Rich people don't need you.  Poor people and "second class citizens" DO.

I won't live in a jungle, even one of my own devising.

This isn't "white knight" shit.  It's simply enlightened self interest.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2014, 04:48:34 pm »
I think CPD's point was that women do not often experience this "common decency" because our culture is sick.
Overheating Pheremone Pustule of Last Saturday's Jiggle Fun| _xgeWireToEvent: Unknown extension 131, this should never happen.

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2014, 04:48:43 pm »
I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.

Fuck that noise.  I act decently because I wish to be a good person.  And because The Terrible Old Man would haunt my bedroom if I didn't.

In fact, you are morally required to be decent to people, and to be nice to them in inverse proportion to their wealth.  Rich people don't need you.  Poor people and "second class citizens" DO.

I won't live in a jungle, even one of my own devising.

This isn't "white knight" shit.  It's simply enlightened self interest.

Well then long may you reign to spread this philosophy where it may take root. Because the "Not My Problem" bros have you outnumbered.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 04:50:38 pm »
I think CPD's point was that women do not often experience this "common decency" because our culture is sick.

So we beat the sickness right out of them.

I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.

Fuck that noise.  I act decently because I wish to be a good person.  And because The Terrible Old Man would haunt my bedroom if I didn't.

In fact, you are morally required to be decent to people, and to be nice to them in inverse proportion to their wealth.  Rich people don't need you.  Poor people and "second class citizens" DO.

I won't live in a jungle, even one of my own devising.

This isn't "white knight" shit.  It's simply enlightened self interest.

Well then long may you reign to spread this philosophy where it may take root. Because the "Not My Problem" bros have you outnumbered.

You get the culture you tolerate.  These assmonkeys have been conditioned since birth.  That's not easy to overcome.

But it's also absolutely necessary, unless we want to live in some horrorshow replay of the 1950s.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 04:59:24 pm »
I think CPD's point was that women do not often experience this "common decency" because our culture is sick.

So we beat the sickness right out of them.

I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.

Fuck that noise.  I act decently because I wish to be a good person.  And because The Terrible Old Man would haunt my bedroom if I didn't.

In fact, you are morally required to be decent to people, and to be nice to them in inverse proportion to their wealth.  Rich people don't need you.  Poor people and "second class citizens" DO.

I won't live in a jungle, even one of my own devising.

This isn't "white knight" shit.  It's simply enlightened self interest.

Well then long may you reign to spread this philosophy where it may take root. Because the "Not My Problem" bros have you outnumbered.

You get the culture you tolerate.  These assmonkeys have been conditioned since birth.  That's not easy to overcome.

But it's also absolutely necessary, unless we want to live in some horrorshow replay of the 1950s.

I'm going to simply say that I admire your common decency philosophy and wish you well with it. I understand you don't think you're doing anything special and it sort of baffles you when people suggest that you are. I get that same sensation when I return someone's dropped wallet or take a stray cat to the vet because something ate half its face or carry groceries to someone's car for them or whatever. It's all what people SHOULD be doing in the first place, helping each other out.

Only not many do.
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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2014, 05:02:04 pm »
Relevant repost:



The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2014, 05:04:24 pm »
Relevant repost:




Yep.

I try to be a good man because I want my kids to live in a good world.  Hell, *I* want to live in a good world.

It's selfish, but it still has the right effect.

Something just occurred to me again.  What if THIS is the version of our world that got it right/did the best?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2014, 05:05:28 pm »
I think CPD's point was that women do not often experience this "common decency" because our culture is sick.

So we beat the sickness right out of them.

I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.

Fuck that noise.  I act decently because I wish to be a good person.  And because The Terrible Old Man would haunt my bedroom if I didn't.

In fact, you are morally required to be decent to people, and to be nice to them in inverse proportion to their wealth.  Rich people don't need you.  Poor people and "second class citizens" DO.

I won't live in a jungle, even one of my own devising.

This isn't "white knight" shit.  It's simply enlightened self interest.

Well then long may you reign to spread this philosophy where it may take root. Because the "Not My Problem" bros have you outnumbered.

You get the culture you tolerate.  These assmonkeys have been conditioned since birth.  That's not easy to overcome.

But it's also absolutely necessary, unless we want to live in some horrorshow replay of the 1950s.

I'm going to simply say that I admire your common decency philosophy and wish you well with it. I understand you don't think you're doing anything special and it sort of baffles you when people suggest that you are. I get that same sensation when I return someone's dropped wallet or take a stray cat to the vet because something ate half its face or carry groceries to someone's car for them or whatever. It's all what people SHOULD be doing in the first place, helping each other out.

Only not many do.

I think most do.  I think WE have been conditioned to believe that the assholes are the majority; they are most certainly NOT.

In this fight, the enemy is ignorance and complacency, not evil.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 09:15:15 pm »
I think CPD's point was that women do not often experience this "common decency" because our culture is sick.

So we beat the sickness right out of them.

I don't know how to stop the rape culture.  I only know how not to participate in it, and how not to permit it to happen in my presence even - especially - if there are no women actually around.

Your points are excellent, but seem to be simple common decency.

Simple, common decency in a world that has reserved it for first class people; not second class people of any stripe.

Fuck that noise.  I act decently because I wish to be a good person.  And because The Terrible Old Man would haunt my bedroom if I didn't.

In fact, you are morally required to be decent to people, and to be nice to them in inverse proportion to their wealth.  Rich people don't need you.  Poor people and "second class citizens" DO.

I won't live in a jungle, even one of my own devising.

This isn't "white knight" shit.  It's simply enlightened self interest.

Well then long may you reign to spread this philosophy where it may take root. Because the "Not My Problem" bros have you outnumbered.

You get the culture you tolerate.  These assmonkeys have been conditioned since birth.  That's not easy to overcome.

But it's also absolutely necessary, unless we want to live in some horrorshow replay of the 1950s.

And this right there is what you can do to change things. I do think things are changing for the better, too, even if it seems slow. When decent men are vocal about not being OK with that shit, men who are operating on bad signal can have their signal corrected, and men who are predatory are less likely to think they can get away with shit.

Men who harass and rape are serial offenders, and a lot of the time they're serial offenders because other men - who are not bad guys - are operating on signal that tells them "he's not a bad guy, he didn't mean anything, he would never do something like that", and so on. Guys like you cut the crap and aren't tentative about it, and that's NECESSARY.
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Re: Doing it Right: for guys who want to help the Rape Culture problem
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 09:35:43 pm »
QG - There's something kicking around in my head along the lines of "don't expect a reward". Acting in these ways (Basic fucking manners,largely) is what you do because if nothing else it's surely how you would wish to be treated?

I suspect there's an uncomfortable number of people who would equate following 1-6 with eventually meaning that they are entitled to sex/attention/whatever but then not magically getting it. Then you're possibly veering into the nastier origins of the nice guy with added cognitive dissonance?

If the above reads like nonsense, it probably is. I'm tired and bad at these threads.
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