Author Topic: Puns Forbidden in China  (Read 5862 times)

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2014, 10:24:54 pm »
But hey. We got that alphabet.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2014, 10:25:56 pm »
I was assuming that the fact there are a huge number of languages spoken in China, but the authorities refuse to acknowledge that their people can't actually talk to one another in favour of pretending there is one universal Chinese language with 'regional dialects' was what he was referring to.

Because it is faintly ridiculous to try and argue there actually is an integrity to be protected when there isn't broad agreement - in practice - across the country about what the language actually is. The notion of a singular Chinese language only really exists as a political construct to try and foster a sense of shared nationhood across such a massive and diverse country.

But honestly, I hope the real reason is just that the authorities hate the fuck out of puns and this is the first step in eradicating their acceptability across the globe.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Chinese government isn't oppressive and hypocritical. However, note that that is not what he said. He called "the language" "backwards-ass".
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Prelate Diogenes Shandor

  • Promotor Fidei
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 17251
  • Behold! The Yellow Sign of Dobbshead
    • View Profile
    • Yiffstar User Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2014, 10:27:03 pm »
I was struck by this line:

Quote
The official line is that the new rules—which ban the use of wordplay in the press, broadcasts, and advertisements—are intended to uphold the sanctity of the Chinese language

Because even if we believe that that really is the reasoning behind it, that's still a pretty bad motivation given that China probably has the most backward-ass language of any noteworthy world power.

It does, does it? By what standard?

They don't even have an alphabet!

Oh dear. Yes Johnny, sadly, you nailed it.

So your argument is that because it's hard to learn and different from the Roman alphabet, it's a "backwards-ass" language?

I mean, I'm assuming you're referring to Mandarin specifically, and just disregarding the other 297 languages spoken in China.

My sister majored in asian studies and the impression that she got from her professors was that the lack of an alphabet made Mandarin and Cantonese unusually hard to learn and to teach, and that the fact that it's so hard to learn may be a large part of the reason why English rather than Mandarin is the main language of international discourse, even though China is roughly equal to the United States in power and influence.

EDIT:
and as I said, adopting Greek, or Cyrillic, or Tibetan, or Katakana, or Thai, or something new entirely, or whatever, would be just as good as latin, as long as it's an alphabet.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 10:35:20 pm by Prelate Diogenes Shandor »
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.

a plague on both your houses -Mercutio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8

It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft

He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata

Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2014, 10:40:06 pm »
I think it has more to do with the fact that we supplanted the English as a world power. Americans speak English for a reason
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2014, 10:51:12 pm »
And you know, even though their world spanning empire is gone, the UK still remains a major player in both world affairs and global economy.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2014, 10:55:47 pm »
Map of all territory formerly part of the British Empire

Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2014, 11:00:51 pm »
I was struck by this line:

Quote
The official line is that the new rules—which ban the use of wordplay in the press, broadcasts, and advertisements—are intended to uphold the sanctity of the Chinese language

Because even if we believe that that really is the reasoning behind it, that's still a pretty bad motivation given that China probably has the most backward-ass language of any noteworthy world power.

It does, does it? By what standard?

They don't even have an alphabet!

Oh dear. Yes Johnny, sadly, you nailed it.

So your argument is that because it's hard to learn and different from the Roman alphabet, it's a "backwards-ass" language?

I mean, I'm assuming you're referring to Mandarin specifically, and just disregarding the other 297 languages spoken in China.

My sister majored in asian studies and the impression that she got from her professors was that the lack of an alphabet made Mandarin and Cantonese unusually hard to learn and to teach, and that the fact that it's so hard to learn may be a large part of the reason why English rather than Mandarin is the main language of international discourse, even though China is roughly equal to the United States in power and influence.

EDIT:
and as I said, adopting Greek, or Cyrillic, or Tibetan, or Katakana, or Thai, or something new entirely, or whatever, would be just as good as latin, as long as it's an alphabet.

Oh, so you heard from your sister that her professors said that it was really hard, which makes it "backwards-ass", and they should adopt an alphabet to make it easier for Westerners to learn. Good thing there aren't any cultural superiority messages embedded in there.

 :lol:
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Q. G. Pennyworth

  • Slimy Thing Who
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 82702
  • QUEEN BITCH OF FLYERS
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2014, 02:30:10 am »
I was struck by this line:

Quote
The official line is that the new rules—which ban the use of wordplay in the press, broadcasts, and advertisements—are intended to uphold the sanctity of the Chinese language

Because even if we believe that that really is the reasoning behind it, that's still a pretty bad motivation given that China probably has the most backward-ass language of any noteworthy world power.

It does, does it? By what standard?

They don't even have an alphabet!

It wouldn't have to be the latin alphabet; it could just as easily be cyrillic, or greek, or kana or a totally new system, but not having an alphabet at all is backward and makes the language needlessly obtuse.

YOUR IDEAS ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.
Overheating Pheremone Pustule of Last Saturday's Jiggle Fun| _xgeWireToEvent: Unknown extension 131, this should never happen.

Don't fucking judge me, I've got tentacles for a face.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2014, 02:44:28 am »
I was struck by this line:

Quote
The official line is that the new rules—which ban the use of wordplay in the press, broadcasts, and advertisements—are intended to uphold the sanctity of the Chinese language

Because even if we believe that that really is the reasoning behind it, that's still a pretty bad motivation given that China probably has the most backward-ass language of any noteworthy world power.

It does, does it? By what standard?

They don't even have an alphabet!

It wouldn't have to be the latin alphabet; it could just as easily be cyrillic, or greek, or kana or a totally new system, but not having an alphabet at all is backward and makes the language needlessly obtuse.

YOUR IDEAS ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.

By this guy's logic, the very roots of history, written in the various Mesopotamian languages and Egyptian, are inherently backward. Because of how they wrote. You know, not because of all of the other fucked up shit like legal maiming or slavery.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2014, 02:54:43 am »
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

Quote
Until the early twentieth century, hangul was denigrated as vulgar by the literate elite who preferred the traditional hanja (Han script) writing system.[4] They gave it such names as:

Achimgeul (아침글 "writing you can learn within a morning").[5] Although somewhat pejorative, this was based on the reality, as expressed by Jeong Inji, that "a wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."[6] In the original hanzi, this is rendered as "故智者不終朝而會,愚者可浹旬而學。"[7]

Translation:
You're dumb and lazy if you need letters.

Considering that there are plenty of loud Americans who don't know how to properly implement a mere 26 symbols after at least a solid decade of training to express their thoughts in writing, there might be some sense in that sentiment. It ain't the writing system. It's the idiot whut weeldz it.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2014, 04:29:25 am »
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

Quote
Until the early twentieth century, hangul was denigrated as vulgar by the literate elite who preferred the traditional hanja (Han script) writing system.[4] They gave it such names as:

Achimgeul (아침글 "writing you can learn within a morning").[5] Although somewhat pejorative, this was based on the reality, as expressed by Jeong Inji, that "a wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."[6] In the original hanzi, this is rendered as "故智者不終朝而會,愚者可浹旬而學。"[7]

Translation:
You're dumb and lazy if you need letters.

Considering that there are plenty of loud Americans who don't know how to properly implement a mere 26 symbols after at least a solid decade of training to express their thoughts in writing, there might be some sense in that sentiment. It ain't the writing system. It's the idiot whut weeldz it.

An alphabet isn't that useful in the hands of a populace who doesn't understand the language well enough to implement it.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2014, 04:35:29 am »
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

Quote
Until the early twentieth century, hangul was denigrated as vulgar by the literate elite who preferred the traditional hanja (Han script) writing system.[4] They gave it such names as:

Achimgeul (아침글 "writing you can learn within a morning").[5] Although somewhat pejorative, this was based on the reality, as expressed by Jeong Inji, that "a wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."[6] In the original hanzi, this is rendered as "故智者不終朝而會,愚者可浹旬而學。"[7]

Translation:
You're dumb and lazy if you need letters.

Considering that there are plenty of loud Americans who don't know how to properly implement a mere 26 symbols after at least a solid decade of training to express their thoughts in writing, there might be some sense in that sentiment. It ain't the writing system. It's the idiot whut weeldz it.

The problem isn't that it's 26 symbols. It's that it takes comprehending one of the world's most difficult, least consistent, most hybridized languages with among the least consistent rules, and that's what you're supposed to learn to read and write. That English, a total bullshit system that only has supremacy due to the combination of ships and guns alongside the lucky strike of not having a random epidemic just then.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2014, 04:47:11 am »
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

Quote
Until the early twentieth century, hangul was denigrated as vulgar by the literate elite who preferred the traditional hanja (Han script) writing system.[4] They gave it such names as:

Achimgeul (아침글 "writing you can learn within a morning").[5] Although somewhat pejorative, this was based on the reality, as expressed by Jeong Inji, that "a wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."[6] In the original hanzi, this is rendered as "故智者不終朝而會,愚者可浹旬而學。"[7]

Translation:
You're dumb and lazy if you need letters.

Considering that there are plenty of loud Americans who don't know how to properly implement a mere 26 symbols after at least a solid decade of training to express their thoughts in writing, there might be some sense in that sentiment. It ain't the writing system. It's the idiot whut weeldz it.

The problem isn't that it's 26 symbols. It's that it takes comprehending one of the world's most difficult, least consistent, most hybridized languages with among the least consistent rules, and that's what you're supposed to learn to read and write. That English, a total bullshit system that only has supremacy due to the combination of ships and guns alongside the lucky strike of not having a random epidemic just then.

Precisely.

The difficulty in learning the language isn't due to how complicated the writing system, in and of itself, is, but rather whether the conceptually easy system of an alphabet accurately captures the way the language is actually spoken. In which case even the confusing looking mess that is post-1948 Irish wins out in consistency. Nor is the difficulty of the language a factor in whether or not it is the lingua franca. These are all unrelated things.

American English only updated the writing system to give the finger to the British Empire, rather than for ease of use. Get rid of the excessive use of the letter u, and replace some of the s with z. English isn't widespread because of it being easier, or even because of the United States being a superpower. Since, well, English was already widely disseminated across the globe without American interference. English is the lingua franca because of the lasting effects of the British Empire and a former British holding taking up the torch after WWII when the other option was Russian.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

The Johnny

  • did nots
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 41296
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2014, 04:56:32 am »

I speak better english than most Americans, which if it was Finlandish it would be something to be proud of... rather it just shows how ignorant the majority of your population is.... what is a great language if none knows how to use it? (which btw, isnt a great language, you savages dont even have accents)

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 259859
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Puns Forbidden in China
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2014, 05:06:04 am »

I speak better english than most Americans, which if it was Finlandish it would be something to be proud of... rather it just shows how ignorant the majority of your population is.... what is a great language if none knows how to use it? (which btw, isnt a great language, you savages dont even have accents)

Tell that to my landlady. She says I have an adorably thick American accent when I try to speak French.

ETA: And she's a native Portuguese speaker.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS