Author Topic: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?  (Read 15041 times)

Don Coyote

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Thinking about post this on a friend's wall in response to her shitty reposting of the "poor EMT doesn't get paid enough so fuck the entitled burger flippers" meme.


Well a minimum wage job is supposed to keep people above the poverty line, but that when bye bye a while ago. Unless you're also saying that burger flippers deserve to live in poverty because they choose to flip burgers because there are so many well paying jobs available.
I mean sure that makes complete and total sense. I remember all of the job offers I got living in Ridgecrest when I was looking for work. Oh wait that's right, I couldn't even get a job flipping burgers in Ridgecrest, and to be honest I couldn't afford to move. I had help leaving R/C to Ventura, where I did get a min wage (temp) job and then a job making 10.50, which wouldn't have been able to pay for rent and college at the same time.
So the burger flippers want a min wage that they can live on, which is the original point behind the min wage, but you think that because it's generally unskilled labor and an entry level job they don't deserve to live above the poverty line and also deserve to pay for the barest minimum of health care.
Let's compare burger flipping to my favorite entry level unskilled job, the Private 2nd Class E-2. An E-2's montly pay is $1,734. Break that down into 40-hour weeks, because you don't get overtime pay in the military, and that is only a paltry $10.83 an hour. That's crazy you must be thinking. Outrageous even. However, the E-2 gets free health care, which includes dental and eye and covers all manner of expensive shit, worth at least $50 a month because that's what I pay as a reservist; free housing, looking the prices in Lakewood, WA that's worth between $500 and $1,500 a month, call it $800; three free meals a day, and not fast food garbage, actual food, which is currently valued at $367.92 a month. Everything other than the base pay is a benefit, and even if this private is drawing the monetary equivalent of those benefits, housing and food, those are not considered income and not taxed.
Monthly gross income would be approximately $3000, hourly wage of $18.75.
I'm also not factoring in the annual tuition cap of $4,500 or the annual clothing stipend which is between $306.00 and $464.40.
But then there is the justification that this private is signing their life away to possibly die, we lose more soldiers to mental health problems or auto accidents than in combat.
But that is also neither here nor there because not everyone CAN join the military even if they wanted to, in some cases for minor things that don't impact normal life, like being too near-sighted, or just not quite "smart" enough to pass the ASVAB.

Rev Thwack

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 06:00:02 pm »
The difference, a fry cook can cook for 5 years and leave as a normal human with a normal human body. You don't do a stint in the service without becoming broken in some regard.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2015, 06:07:34 pm »
The people who are opposed to raising the minimum wage pretty much universally have their heads up their asses, particularly the contingent which apparently believes that paying more in entry-level jobs is a threat to the middle class.

Most of them also don't seem to understand what "entry-level" even means.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Don Coyote

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2015, 06:11:09 pm »
The people who are opposed to raising the minimum wage pretty much universally have their heads up their asses, particularly the contingent which apparently believes that paying more in entry-level jobs is a threat to the middle class.

Most of them also don't seem to understand what "entry-level" even means.

And great many of them seem to be the very people that would benefit from a higher minimum wage.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2015, 06:20:12 pm »
The people who are opposed to raising the minimum wage pretty much universally have their heads up their asses, particularly the contingent which apparently believes that paying more in entry-level jobs is a threat to the middle class.

Most of them also don't seem to understand what "entry-level" even means.

And great many of them seem to be the very people that would benefit from a higher minimum wage.

I think a lot of them have been lied to by their bosses. My housemate is a production manager, and he's making $12/hour, which is absolutely ridiculous. His boss (also a friend of mine) told him that if the Oregon minimum wage goes to $15 he'll move the company out of state.

These kinds of threats are a common response from cheapskate business owners who have bought into the (bad) idea that the best way to increase profits is to decrease overhead, but they're basically all bluff. The cost of moving would be catastrophic, and getting re-established could take years. It's bullshit. Also, I've been telling this guy for years that if he hired at $12, he would be way ahead of the game with a higher caliber of employee. He should know this, he was once MY employee and I didn't pay anyone less than $12 at a time when the minimum wage was below $8; I expected a better caliber of employee, paid for it, and got it. He's gone through a half-dozen bad-idea employees because that's what you get when you pay minimum wage in a job that should be $12 to start.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2015, 01:32:03 am »
i have seen the argument that minimum wage does not provide enough income to afford to rent an apartment.  i get that - i've been there.  but - what is to stop landlords from raising the rent once minimum wage is increased?

also - i think raising minimum wage would be devastating to many small business.  many small businesses can barely keep the lights on as it is - raising the minimum wage could be the straw that breaks many camels' backs. 

However, I was wondering - would making employees salaried be a "work around?" to this.  is there a minimum legal annual salary? 
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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2015, 01:32:58 am »
It's really very simple.  A consumer economy fails if nobody can afford to buy anything.


Junkenstein

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2015, 02:32:12 am »
Somewhat relevant aside:

There's a cracking Mark Thomas bit about a trade union rep campaigning for the living wage (when that concept first got touted) and to get more union members. His chosen location was outside a Mcdonalds. He had clearly caused the management some distress and was being hassled by security. His line of defense was perfect:

"What the you hassling me for? I just want all these people to be earning £7.50/hour. I bet you're not getting £7.50/hour, how about you join the union?"

I've no idea what the end result for the guy was, but I would suspect that no small number of those opposed to whatever wages proposed see it as some kind of threat. Not just to the middle class, but to their own personal self worth. THEY are getting more so there must be less left for ME. Add in the USA rugged individualism bullshit and the historical treatment/portrayal of unions in the USA (elsewhere is little better) and you're creating a culture which fucks it's-self because it thinks that's how you get ahead.


Fuck the minimum wage, throw around the concept of "Maximum wage" and things get interesting.
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Don Coyote

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2015, 02:35:02 am »
It's really very simple.  A consumer economy fails if nobody can afford to buy anything.



And when a person/family has their basic needs met, they are much more apt to purchase luxury goods, which, i dunno, might possibly bolster a consumer based economy.

Rev Thwack

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2015, 02:38:51 am »
i have seen the argument that minimum wage does not provide enough income to afford to rent an apartment.  i get that - i've been there.  but - what is to stop landlords from raising the rent once minimum wage is increased?

also - i think raising minimum wage would be devastating to many small business.  many small businesses can barely keep the lights on as it is - raising the minimum wage could be the straw that breaks many camels' backs. 

However, I was wondering - would making employees salaried be a "work around?" to this.  is there a minimum legal annual salary?
From a historical standpoint, businesses absorb the impact of a minimum wage increases rather well. Most small businesses only employee a handful of people, and very few at minimum wage. The impact to their profits tends to be rather low, with the large employers and franchise operations taking the largest hit. Franchises and large corporations don't typically have the issue with narrow profits that you see in small businesses. Overall, increases are typically absorbed rather easily... A few positions/hours will be cut, a few prices will be raised, and a few quarterly filings will show lower earnings forecasts, but using previous changes in minimum wage as an example, we can expect an increase in minimum wage to raise the living conditions for about the bottom 30% of wage earners.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2015, 03:51:16 am »
Small businesses are usually reliant on the working and middle class for their customer base.

Having owned a small business, it is my opinion that small business owners are shooting themselves in the foot by paying minimum wage to begin with. An extra buck or two an hour is not a large proportion of overhead and can buy a significant amount of loyalty and productivity.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2015, 04:59:21 am »
Small businesses are usually reliant on the working and middle class for their customer base.

Having owned a small business, it is my opinion that small business owners are shooting themselves in the foot by paying minimum wage to begin with. An extra buck or two an hour is not a large proportion of overhead and can buy a significant amount of loyalty and productivity.

THIS ^^.

When I was doing contracting, I always put it in terms of "you get what you pay for."
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2015, 05:29:08 am »
Small businesses are usually reliant on the working and middle class for their customer base.

Having owned a small business, it is my opinion that small business owners are shooting themselves in the foot by paying minimum wage to begin with. An extra buck or two an hour is not a large proportion of overhead and can buy a significant amount of loyalty and productivity.

THIS ^^.

When I was doing contracting, I always put it in terms of "you get what you pay for."

I have a friend in printing who has no end of trouble with employees. Low productivity, unreliability, drinking, disruptive behavior, falsifying qualifications, and so on. I keep telling him that he can minimize these problems by paying a couple bucks an hour more -- given that he only has three employees, that's not a lot of money -- and stands to gain huge increases in productivity while ending losses from turnover and training. He insists that his business "can't afford it". I call bullshit; the money his business is losing by going through new employees every six months is far more than it would cost to pay a couple more dollars an hour to a higher caliber of employee who is productive and sticks around.

But he went to business school and is wedded to the bottom line, instead of looking at the gains of increased productivity.

The most ironic part is that HE USED TO WORK FOR ME. I paid him more eight years ago than he pays his employees now. He bought one of my businesses when I decided I needed to work less.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2015, 05:32:03 am »

But he went to business school

Problem spotted.

Quote
and is wedded to the bottom line, instead of looking at the gains of increased productivity.

Which is typical business school bullshit.  The only thing that matters is the space between the bottom line and the "top" line.  Margin.

Of course, as soon as that margin starts looking juicy, it's time to get greedy and kill the goose with the golden eggs.

Because it's America, and we're dumb.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2015, 06:17:44 am »

But he went to business school

Problem spotted.

Quote
and is wedded to the bottom line, instead of looking at the gains of increased productivity.

Which is typical business school bullshit.  The only thing that matters is the space between the bottom line and the "top" line.  Margin.

Of course, as soon as that margin starts looking juicy, it's time to get greedy and kill the goose with the golden eggs.

Because it's America, and we're dumb.

It's not even the size of the margin that counts, really; after all, you can make more profit with a smaller margin if you're moving more goods.

The funniest thing is that because people keep leaving, he ends up having to pay his highest-paid employee time and a half to work overtime to get the orders out.

But can't afford to hire at $12 instead of $10. :roll: It's absolutely every single one of the classic business errors.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”