Author Topic: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.  (Read 69074 times)

Doktor Howl

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The Johnny

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #91 on: August 10, 2015, 11:35:24 pm »
There is something really nasty about the "support for your side is conditional, based on politeness" narrative...

This phrase out of context seems to me very profound that trascends the current discussion...

Like, the general population is so excluding and bland, im having a hard time grasping and expressing it...

Its sometimes like they dont care to the point as if they were reacting to animals, in the sense that if one treats them well or horridly its not of much trascendence and its only limited by how it makes you feel. Is it nice and cute? Great! Did it growl at you or doesnt appeal with your aesthetic sensibilities? Pass me the bat...

There is no generalized social perspective that sees excluded groups as sets of people with legitimate rights and needs so mere small things such as social etiquette or manner of transmission of message are enough excuses to feel repelled by them.

N E T

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2015, 11:38:52 pm »
I agree with you - I think they poked a soft spot which Sanders needed to firm up. After the first round of disruptions, Sanders focused on economic inequality. But that missed the point, police brutality happens to well-off / college educated people too.

Now, for the first time, he's talking about police reform. Good! Somebody had to give him a black eye and now he's stronger for it.

Yep. He fucked up, but he seems to have learned from it. He thought he could ignore racial issues, which is a common theme with well-intentioned white people... just pretend that racial issues are really economic issues, and that way you don't have to deal with the icky feeling that comes from looking racial issues in the face.

Conspiracy theorists are floating the rumor that the protesters are secretly just trying  to undermine Sanders. Because, well, that's more palatable than facing the reality that the protesters had a fucking point.

Saying Sanders ignored racial issues before the shitty Seattle protest is not remotely true:

www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/bernie-sanders-campaign-adds-young-black-woman-as-new-public#.woxOp0p5mp

Quote
Symone Sanders is a young, black criminal justice advocate and supporter of the Black Lives Matter movement. She’s also a progressive political activist right out of the Sanders mold: Her last job was at Ralph Nader’s Public Citizen. In an interview, Symone Sanders said she first connected with the senator about three weeks ago, offering him advice on how to better understand the message of Black Lives Matter activists in an hourlong chat.

“One of my suggestions, he took it and ran with it on Meet the Press, is that racial inequality and economic inequality are parallel issues,” she said. “I [told him,] you know, economic equality is an issue. It’s something we need to address. But for some people it doesn’t matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter where you went to school, it doesn’t matter what your parents do. It doesn’t matter that Sandra Bland had a job and was on her way to teach for her alma mater. It doesn’t matter. None of that matters.”
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 11:41:11 pm by N E T »
“There are some defeats more triumphant than victories.” - M I C H E L   D E   M O N T A I G N E

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2015, 04:43:00 am »
I agree with you - I think they poked a soft spot which Sanders needed to firm up. After the first round of disruptions, Sanders focused on economic inequality. But that missed the point, police brutality happens to well-off / college educated people too.

Now, for the first time, he's talking about police reform. Good! Somebody had to give him a black eye and now he's stronger for it.

Yep. He fucked up, but he seems to have learned from it. He thought he could ignore racial issues, which is a common theme with well-intentioned white people... just pretend that racial issues are really economic issues, and that way you don't have to deal with the icky feeling that comes from looking racial issues in the face.

Conspiracy theorists are floating the rumor that the protesters are secretly just trying  to undermine Sanders. Because, well, that's more palatable than facing the reality that the protesters had a fucking point.

Saying Sanders ignored racial issues before the shitty Seattle protest is not remotely true:

www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/bernie-sanders-campaign-adds-young-black-woman-as-new-public#.woxOp0p5mp

Quote
Symone Sanders is a young, black criminal justice advocate and supporter of the Black Lives Matter movement. She’s also a progressive political activist right out of the Sanders mold: Her last job was at Ralph Nader’s Public Citizen. In an interview, Symone Sanders said she first connected with the senator about three weeks ago, offering him advice on how to better understand the message of Black Lives Matter activists in an hourlong chat.

“One of my suggestions, he took it and ran with it on Meet the Press, is that racial inequality and economic inequality are parallel issues,” she said. “I [told him,] you know, economic equality is an issue. It’s something we need to address. But for some people it doesn’t matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter where you went to school, it doesn’t matter what your parents do. It doesn’t matter that Sandra Bland had a job and was on her way to teach for her alma mater. It doesn’t matter. None of that matters.”

OK, he didn't ignore racial issues entirely, but here the issue is that he didn't explicitly include police reform in his platform. He just didn't enter the race prepared to discuss it at all.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #94 on: August 11, 2015, 04:43:43 am »
There is something really nasty about the "support for your side is conditional, based on politeness" narrative...

This phrase out of context seems to me very profound that trascends the current discussion...

Like, the general population is so excluding and bland, im having a hard time grasping and expressing it...

Its sometimes like they dont care to the point as if they were reacting to animals, in the sense that if one treats them well or horridly its not of much trascendence and its only limited by how it makes you feel. Is it nice and cute? Great! Did it growl at you or doesnt appeal with your aesthetic sensibilities? Pass me the bat...

There is no generalized social perspective that sees excluded groups as sets of people with legitimate rights and needs so mere small things such as social etiquette or manner of transmission of message are enough excuses to feel repelled by them.

Yes, this.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Doktor Howl

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #95 on: August 11, 2015, 04:49:45 am »

OK, he didn't ignore racial issues entirely, but here the issue is that he didn't explicitly include police reform in his platform. He just didn't enter the race prepared to discuss it at all.

Problem with police reform is the 10th amendment.  He's not empowered to monkey with state or local police.  Congress would have a hard time with it, even if congress is willing, which they're not.


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #96 on: August 11, 2015, 04:59:27 am »
In a further complication:

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/10/real-black-lives-matter-wsnts-activists-publicly-apologize-bernie-sanders.html

This article calls up all sorts of red flags for me. For example, the reference to "the real Black Lives Matter", when actually the people who registered a nonprofit in that name do not have a monopoly on the movement. For example, also, the statement that Johnson and Willaford are not affiliated with the .org, when they, in fact, are registered with them (a wholly voluntary act that has no bearing on the fact that BLM is a movement, not an organization... despite the fact that there is an organization bearing the movement's name). For example, further, the citation of one of their own writers as evidence, citation of a seeming random Twitter user (no link provided) as further evidence, and the claim that Johnson and Willaford are actually affiliated with another group, Outside Agitators 206, but without citing any evidence.

It's red-flag-tastic.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #97 on: August 11, 2015, 05:03:34 am »

OK, he didn't ignore racial issues entirely, but here the issue is that he didn't explicitly include police reform in his platform. He just didn't enter the race prepared to discuss it at all.

Problem with police reform is the 10th amendment.  He's not empowered to monkey with state or local police.  Congress would have a hard time with it, even if congress is willing, which they're not.

Well, that's a dandy excuse to just not address the topic at all, I guess.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #98 on: August 11, 2015, 05:07:18 am »
Hmmmmmm

https://outsideagitators206.org/who-we-are/

Doesn't seem to be what that article claims they are.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Doktor Howl

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #99 on: August 11, 2015, 05:30:06 am »
In a further complication:

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/10/real-black-lives-matter-wsnts-activists-publicly-apologize-bernie-sanders.html

This article calls up all sorts of red flags for me. For example, the reference to "the real Black Lives Matter", when actually the people who registered a nonprofit in that name do not have a monopoly on the movement. For example, also, the statement that Johnson and Willaford are not affiliated with the .org, when they, in fact, are registered with them (a wholly voluntary act that has no bearing on the fact that BLM is a movement, not an organization... despite the fact that there is an organization bearing the movement's name). For example, further, the citation of one of their own writers as evidence, citation of a seeming random Twitter user (no link provided) as further evidence, and the claim that Johnson and Willaford are actually affiliated with another group, Outside Agitators 206, but without citing any evidence.

It's red-flag-tastic.

I'm not claiming that they're legit.  I'm just saying the number of factions are growing.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2015, 03:42:02 pm »
In a further complication:

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/08/10/real-black-lives-matter-wsnts-activists-publicly-apologize-bernie-sanders.html

This article calls up all sorts of red flags for me. For example, the reference to "the real Black Lives Matter", when actually the people who registered a nonprofit in that name do not have a monopoly on the movement. For example, also, the statement that Johnson and Willaford are not affiliated with the .org, when they, in fact, are registered with them (a wholly voluntary act that has no bearing on the fact that BLM is a movement, not an organization... despite the fact that there is an organization bearing the movement's name). For example, further, the citation of one of their own writers as evidence, citation of a seeming random Twitter user (no link provided) as further evidence, and the claim that Johnson and Willaford are actually affiliated with another group, Outside Agitators 206, but without citing any evidence.

It's red-flag-tastic.

I'm not claiming that they're legit.  I'm just saying the number of factions are growing.

Or at least, the white progressives who have their stomachs in knots after being called racist would like you to believe so, by portraying BLM as factionalized, based on things written by white bloggers. That way, they can discount the fact that black people think they're racist by dismissing them as an illegitimate faction who in no way reflect the thoughts of REAL, LEGITIMATE black people.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2015, 03:49:52 pm »
I know you keep trumpeting Sanders as "the only candidate who really cares about the environment", but I am unconvinced. Not only does Clinton have a stronger track record in terms of action against climate change, but Sanders' support of GMO labeling makes me think he's more interested in pandering to his demographic than actual environmental protection, simply because labeling is such a big brick in the wall for the anti-GMO contingent. http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-let-states-require-gmo-food-labels

He does talk a good game, I'll give him that. But I am skeptical.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2015, 03:56:07 pm »
Doesn't look like adding BLM to his platform is hurting him any. http://thinkprogress.org/election/2015/08/10/3689728/after-repeated-protests-bernie-sanders-releases-racial-justice-platform/

Unless, of course, we just aren't yet hearing from the legions of white Progressives who will abandon him because they think  his message is being "diluted" by concern for black Americans.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #103 on: August 11, 2015, 04:01:04 pm »
This is a really good analysis of the tensions between white progressive Sanders-supporters and BLM that might shed some light into why they feel defensive enough to try to discredit BLM activists: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/11/9127653/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #104 on: August 11, 2015, 04:33:28 pm »
The video interview at that link is really interesting. It makes it very clear that Sanders is the champion of the white middle class, and, at least until now, has been determined to shoehorn the killings of black people into an economic context. It's no mystery that he and most of his supporters see race as a distraction, and therein lies the disconnect.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”