Author Topic: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.  (Read 96321 times)

Pergamos

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #120 on: August 13, 2015, 09:13:13 am »
Re the police shootings th9ng, the real issue there is the justice system being corrupt. If it were possible for a police officer to be convicted of a crime there'd be a lot less of these shootings, racism or not.

Well, the thing is, it IS possible, according to the laws of the land. Our racist police force simply always "investigates" and then "clears them of any wrongdoing", or our racist justice system finds them "not guilty".

It's not just racist.  Blacks bear the brunt of it, partly I think because racists are drawn toward policing.  It lets them abuse and murder black people without consequence, but cops kill white people in completely unjustified ways as well.  They are not held any more accountable for it when they do.  It happens more often with white people who are marginalized in some way other than race.  Trans women, the mentally ill, and so forth.

The system is a mess, it is racist, but even if race was not a factor it would still be an awful mess.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #121 on: August 13, 2015, 04:33:55 pm »
Re the police shootings th9ng, the real issue there is the justice system being corrupt. If it were possible for a police officer to be convicted of a crime there'd be a lot less of these shootings, racism or not.

Well, the thing is, it IS possible, according to the laws of the land. Our racist police force simply always "investigates" and then "clears them of any wrongdoing", or our racist justice system finds them "not guilty".

It's not just racist.  Blacks bear the brunt of it, partly I think because racists are drawn toward policing.  It lets them abuse and murder black people without consequence, but cops kill white people in completely unjustified ways as well.  They are not held any more accountable for it when they do.  It happens more often with white people who are marginalized in some way other than race.  Trans women, the mentally ill, and so forth.

The system is a mess, it is racist, but even if race was not a factor it would still be an awful mess.

This is also true. However, one of the reasons for the BLM movement is that if whites were being beaten, killed, and imprisoned at the rate relative to the population that blacks are, it is very likely that reform would already have happened. But the overwhelming default in the US is that black lives aren't worth getting upset over, hence the movement.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #122 on: August 13, 2015, 04:36:24 pm »
I don't think she's saying that at all, but that's just my 2 cents.

Yeah, you're correct. Saying that racism IS a problem is  not saying that other problems don't exist.

Saying "rainforests matter" is not the same as saying "no other kinds of forest matter".

Pointing out that ocean acidification is a major problem is not saying that drought is not a major problem.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #123 on: August 13, 2015, 04:38:31 pm »
Sometimes I get hung up on a thread here @PD, slowly absorbing info and pondering whether or not I have relevant input, and this has definitely been one.

Not sure I should chime in, but I'm gonna because the economic and racial issues are quite intertwined but not the exact same thing and also I begin to suspect that other than Nigel I may have significantly greater experience than many here with the good and bad alike in Black culture and can certainly state that I've seen the prejudice mechanics in action and even counted upon them on some few occasions in my life. Notably to keep Black, and other minority, friends out of jail or needless arrest, but no all my deeds are laudable or fair minded or just. If someone draws from me a need to kick them under a bus, under they go.
This has not been an issue for a very long time and I very much hope to keep it so.

Just to be clear the following draws from my subjective experiences and observations of prejudiced racial attitudes. It is what it is, but what it is not is an attempt to offend or put anybody down. I've lived in the stew of racial strife my whole life and my hometown is a special case of ongoing tensions faced openly and resulting in understanding and compromise. This doesn't mean that the tension is going away any time soon.

Nigel is, as one might guess, totally correct about the very strong religious and conservative tendency in Black culture. It might, just might, be stronger than in White culture, certainly by proportion. I can attest that within my experience their churches are quite a bit more cohesive and often the word of a trusted minister or elder is better able to exert greater influence for good or ill. This tendency does reinforce a certain prejudice common to conservative church-goers against homosexuals. Being Black is hard and unfair, being also gay and male can be nightmarish. Note that this is not AT ALL a hard rule, but a strong and consistent tendency is undeniable in my experience.

It bears mention, because the "Liberal Black" is just another stereotype and not even a particularly realistic one. There's a weird assumption among the more ignorant Whites that all minorities cling together and just freaking love each other. This is probably because the Whites in question don't get, and often don't at all desire, much multi-racial exposure. The "I don't hate those people but..." mentality is extremely common, a certain willful ignorance even more so. But enough about whitey for now.

Where this comes relevant to the discussion at hand is directly related to the BLM movement and Mr. Sanders' reaction to the first of BLM's protests, as I saw it. Mr. Sanders tried to have his say over voices he didn't fully understand, couldn't fully understand because he might be a lot of things but Black isn't one of them. He stood against the fury of it and did his best to stick to his message, to what he knows. This was perhaps not optimal, but not a bad response to a disruption under normal circumstances.

Problem was this was not normal circumstances. Those voices were from people that have an immediate and terribly deadly problem that they NEED to see addressed with due urgency, not diverted to discourse on root causes and long term solutions. Sanders didn't GET IT, but I understand he's trying like hell to and that's far more than ANY other candidate currently running will do. They'll search for a talking point or an ally to act as a mouthpiece maybe, but not really try to understand in an experiential sense. He'll never fully understand because he's pretty darn far from the street level, blood and concrete, shit and Whiter than a mayonnaise sandwich on Wonderbread, but he's BLM's best shot and it certainly got him listening and spread their message. It's a good message about very bad problems.

Those problems go very deep indeed, but I need some sleep and would like some feedback before I decide whether or not to keep going here.

Well said.  Thank you.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #124 on: August 13, 2015, 04:45:40 pm »
Also, I imagine it probably goes without saying but I just felt like mentioning that the implications of addressing economic inequality in America without also addressing systemic racial inequality is that white people would experience an improvement in economic equality with more job opportunities and less poverty, but black people wouldn't, with a net result of increased economic inequality for black people.

You could say that wouldn't happen, but words are cheap and history is evidence.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Cain

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2015, 05:44:34 pm »
I'll admit, I used to subscribe to a (much watered down and contingent) theory that addressing economic inequality would help in addressing racism.

But when you look at historical periods of high wage growth and home ownership etc...well, they also align closely with the time the Civil Rights Movement was a thing.  Now you could argue social mores have improved since then and so the comparison doesn't really hold water...but then if you look at current social mores with regard to black Americans, you can see that economic inequality is only part of a much larger problem, and also a symptom of the enduring systemic racism of American society.

Obviously having less black Americans in poverty would be helpful...having the economic resources to challenge bullshit charges, lobby politicians, put pressure on advertisers for racist media outlets and so on is never going to hurt.  But it's not sufficient on its own, the problem comes back to how the political and legal system enables racism to be perpetuated.  Until that is tackled, not much is going to change.

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #126 on: August 13, 2015, 07:35:35 pm »
I'll admit, I used to subscribe to a (much watered down and contingent) theory that addressing economic inequality would help in addressing racism.

But when you look at historical periods of high wage growth and home ownership etc...well, they also align closely with the time the Civil Rights Movement was a thing.  Now you could argue social mores have improved since then and so the comparison doesn't really hold water...but then if you look at current social mores with regard to black Americans, you can see that economic inequality is only part of a much larger problem, and also a symptom of the enduring systemic racism of American society.

Obviously having less black Americans in poverty would be helpful...having the economic resources to challenge bullshit charges, lobby politicians, put pressure on advertisers for racist media outlets and so on is never going to hurt.  But it's not sufficient on its own, the problem comes back to how the political and legal system enables racism to be perpetuated.  Until that is tackled, not much is going to change.

Bingo.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #127 on: August 13, 2015, 07:43:26 pm »
I have to admit that part of me really, REALLY wants the Republican party to recapture the majority of the black vote, because 1. the confusion it would throw white Progressives into would be hilarious, and 2. I guarantee that a lot of them will switch to open racism. Not the majority, but a substantial minority who are currently held in check only by the idea that black people are default Democrats, and therefore Democrats have to like black people.

We shouldn't forget which party was the party of the KKK. If entire black communities in the US were able to get over that and jump ship from the party of The Great Emancipator, then if the Republican party quits pandering to the Negrophobe minority and embraces racial equality as part of its platform, I would expect to see the majority of Black votes swinging Republican. Which would inevitably lead to a great hilarious squealing and gnashing of teeth among white Democrats, infuriated by the turncoat traitors who just don't know what's good for them.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Cain

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #128 on: August 13, 2015, 07:52:53 pm »
It would definitely be interesting.  If I were advising the Republicans, I'd suggest they try and focus on a social conservatism that is ethnically inclusive, but religiously derived.  That kind of message could allow them to capture significant black and latino votes, not to mention possibly even win back the Muslim vote (if they toned down the explicitly Christian appeal).

However, given the prominence with which the term "cuckservative" is being used, it seems if anything they're retreating into race-based psychosexual panic of the most hysterical kind.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2015, 08:49:54 pm »
It would definitely be interesting.  If I were advising the Republicans, I'd suggest they try and focus on a social conservatism that is ethnically inclusive, but religiously derived.  That kind of message could allow them to capture significant black and latino votes, not to mention possibly even win back the Muslim vote (if they toned down the explicitly Christian appeal).

However, given the prominence with which the term "cuckservative" is being used, it seems if anything they're retreating into race-based psychosexual panic of the most hysterical kind.

Yeah, the Republican party seems to have just gone full potato, beyond all rational possibility of hope. It's kind of amazing that their least insane candidate, their ACTUAL least insane candidate, is probably Marco Rubio.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Cain

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #130 on: August 13, 2015, 08:54:42 pm »
Yeah, or maybe Jeb Bush (I'll admit, I haven't done a side by side comparison, but either are still relatively crazy).

Interestingly, the whole cuckservative thing is bringing the GOP closer into the ReturnOfTheKings/RedPill/Breitbart/VDARE/4chan cesspit.  I still can't believe such a blatantly dumb and sexually insecure term has become the rallying cry of the far-right.

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #131 on: August 13, 2015, 09:46:38 pm »
It would definitely be interesting.  If I were advising the Republicans, I'd suggest they try and focus on a social conservatism that is ethnically inclusive, but religiously derived.  That kind of message could allow them to capture significant black and latino votes, not to mention possibly even win back the Muslim vote (if they toned down the explicitly Christian appeal).

However, given the prominence with which the term "cuckservative" is being used, it seems if anything they're retreating into race-based psychosexual panic of the most hysterical kind.

Yeah, the Republican party seems to have just gone full potato, beyond all rational possibility of hope. It's kind of amazing that their least insane candidate, their ACTUAL least insane candidate, is probably Marco Rubio.

What was Kasich's crazy? I don't know enough about the guy but he seemed too rational for the debate he was in.
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Cain

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #132 on: August 13, 2015, 09:49:27 pm »
Eh, Kaisch is also one of the more rational ones, possibly even more sane than the above two (his assholish tendencies seem to be the usual "cut spending as much as possible" kinds) but I'd also say he was second tier in comparison with Rubio and Bush.

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #133 on: August 14, 2015, 03:52:32 am »
Kasich is a moderate, he's kind of crazy about abortion though, and the Ohio government has done some very shady things on his watch.  Personally I really hope blacks don't flee to the Republican party because the Democratic party seems to finally be starting to care about poor people again, and I am poor and would really like one of the parties to care about me, and for that party to have as many supporters as possible.  I would like to see the Democrats start to seriously address racial issues.

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #134 on: August 14, 2015, 06:06:28 am »
Eh, Kaisch is also one of the more rational ones, possibly even more sane than the above two (his assholish tendencies seem to be the usual "cut spending as much as possible" kinds) but I'd also say he was second tier in comparison with Rubio and Bush.

Yeah, I didn't include anyone who is currently showing at less that 10%.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”