Author Topic: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.  (Read 100028 times)

Junkenstein

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #405 on: March 29, 2016, 01:01:08 pm »
A lady in a group I'm in posted this article and stated her response better than I ever could have:

http://qz.com/644985/privilege-is-what-allows-sanders-supporters-to-say-theyll-never-vote-for-clinton/

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This means that for those who are socially vulnerable, or would be under a GOP presidency are voting for their safety, their livelihoods, their health, or even possibly their lives. For them, the notion of 'bernieorbust' is unthinkable. It is only people who have a reasonable expectation of being able to ride out a GOP administration unscathed that have the luxury of sticking their noses in the air and wasting their vote. Yes, one should vote their conscience, but unless that conscience includes how your vote impacts others, you are being self-absorbed and privileged.

I'm really not sure about that piece. The author is clearly voting democrat, regardless of the eventual candidate. That's fine.

What isn't fine by me is the argument through fear because the other side's guy will be worse. Now while that may obviously be the case, it doesn't really excuse the fact that I consider all candidates at present to be a little shitty to say the least. Elections have been about picking the "least worst option" for far too long. And it often happens and the inevitable results are never anticipated. Remember the Obama run up and inital year? Huge optimism despite consistently being given reasons not to be. I'm not exactly sure what the real day-to day impact of Obamacare has on the US but it's rare to hear anything good about it. When you starting talking about his various fuck arounds with Drones, it gets grim quickly.

I can't see any of the potential candidates being less averse to using drones. I'd suspect that Clinton and Trump would have fleets commissioned in short order after taking power.

How about NSA/CIA agency related issues? Does anyone think that any of the current candidates will do anything remotely positive in this area? Again, I'd guess who-ever takes over will gladly throw more money down the pit because they've got no fucking choice. Or they'll do it gladly without seeing any problems.

Pulling the "Vote for democrats because the republicans will be worse" is a shitty, shitty argument, particularly when I can see no real evidence of things being "better" under democrats. 



The other side of this is the constant reference to "campaign promises". Until election manifestos are in some way contractually binding, these things mean precisely shit. It would surprise no-one if the person elected took over and just did the complete opposite of what they promised. I'd even expect them to do exactly that. I could write pages here but lets cut it down to Gitmo is still operating despite promises. And due to all the attention and bullshit around Trump + Co. No-one even gives a shit any more. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about waterboarding? Exactly. There was more vague bullshit in late feb about Obama wanting to clear it out but this seemed unlikely with a republican congress. So the shitshow there will continue unabated.

There's also this:

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If you’re reviling Clinton for campaign contributions made by banks, but did not revile Barack Obama for the same thing, I want you to take a long, long think about why that is.

At this point, the author needs to take a long drink of "Go fuck yourself". Clinton, in common with all candidates is part of the wonderful cycle of donations and lobbyists that make the entire political process in the US a fucking joke. All candidates have taken money from questionable sources. Some are worse than others. Highlighting only banks here is just stupid, the issue is there are a massive number of firms that make significant, equal, donations to BOTH sides. You should be disgusted with them taking the fucking bribes in the first place not concerned with who else did it or what sector they came from. Bribes from Pharmaceutical companies are not magically more ethical than bribes from Wall street. 

When all candidates are shitty and untrustworthy, is it worth the effort to vote? When all candidates are likely to do exactly the same things and continue existing policies, is there any fucking point in it either?
 
Don't worry too much, we get to do this all again in a few years and pretend that everything would have been totally different and much Better/Worse under the other guy.
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Cainad (dec.)

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #406 on: March 29, 2016, 01:19:34 pm »
You don't hear anything good about Obamacare because people like it that way. It's still far away from what I want, but the fact is that it's better than before.

And I'm not sure you appreciate the threat that yahoos pose when they see that "their guy" has got the big job, so now they can get to work "making America great again." And all the horrors that entails.

Clinton will piss people off (and who won't?), but Trump will embolden fascists.

LMNO

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #407 on: March 29, 2016, 01:42:16 pm »
I have lots of privilege.  I mean, LOTS.  White, college grad, upper tax bracket, male, good family, etc.


It occurred to me a few weeks ago that regardless of who is president or who is in congress, I probably wouldn't see any major ill effects on my life.  And so, functionally speaking in a selfish, Randian sort of way, it doesn't really matter who I vote for, or if I vote at all.

But that would make me a really shitty human.  I consciously voted for the candidate and the party that would raise my taxes in the primary.  And I'll eagerly vote against the party that has decided to fuck over more than half the country.  Because fuck those guys.

There is no balanced equivalence between the two parties.  On one side you have a moderate leftist versus a leftist moderate; on the other side you have the closest I've seen to Godwin's Law made manifest in my lifetime.  To hold an ideology that declares that holding out for one guy is more important than letting tinted tube of hemorrhoid cream with a fuzzy applicator tip Trump take the wheel is really, really fucking stupid.

Junkenstein

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #408 on: March 29, 2016, 01:53:01 pm »
Well, by that token wouldn't Clinton also embolden fascists? Their guy lost, probably due to (insert conspiracy) so let's go and act the arse. You'll get bullshit with idiots and racists regardless of the victor, I can't honestly say that it would be better or worse under either. The Obama terms have hardly been free from racial events. While I can't exactly level the blame at Obama, it didn't really seem like fascists were cowed and hiding.

So a Trump win would make rednecks go crazy. Crazier. So obviously a Clinton win will make them into perfect citizens, right? There's no chance that they'll act like a gang of arseholes, regardless, right? 


Wankers act like wankers, they need little excuse. Who-ever wins there will always be some cretin shouting about militas and the evils of gubment. Until your presidential candidates stop taking bribes from the NRA idiots will be able to walk around armed and cause problems. But you can't mention anything negative about guns if you want to be president.


It just really looks and feels like another stage of the two man con to me.
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Cain

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #409 on: March 29, 2016, 02:30:34 pm »
The point is, under Clinton you won't have Muslims being denied entry to America for their religion, or Mexican immigrants (as well as, almost certainly, a shit-ton of Latin-Americans who are citizens) being mass-deported.  You won't have a DHS that is afraid to move against far-right political violence and terrorism (Clinton saw enough of that, first time around when her husband was President, to not have much patience with such groups).  You won't have yahoo police captains thinking their day has come and escalating their violence against black American even further than it is already has, because President Trump has their back and everyone from the White House down "knows" BLM is a front for the New Black Panthers.  You won't have Sikhs suffering from being mistaken for Muslims and thus accused of "sneaking into the country" before getting beaten to death as ISIS infiltrators.

LMNO

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #410 on: March 29, 2016, 02:32:22 pm »
You seem to be talking about knock-on effects about how the people will act.  But what about the knock-on effects about who's in power?  When President Trump or Cruz nominates someone to the right of Scalia for the Supreme Court?  When all the people not voting out of protest leave the House and Senate in the hands of the GOP, again?  When (even more) Anti-LGBT laws become federal statutes?  When the income gap stretches out even wider?  When the national minimum wage laws become maximum wage laws?  When internment camps for immigrants become permanent detainment structures?

Ok, those last two may be a stretch, but with a president Cruz or Trump, its a lot more probable.  But I don't see a president Clinton doing anything that horrible.


[EDIT: Cain just said it better.]

Junkenstein

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #411 on: March 29, 2016, 02:53:27 pm »
I wish I could share your optimism, but it seems a little misplaced. I can't realistically see anyone inclined to curb the income gap for example. Not in a way that doesn't allow the wealthy to avoid/benefit from any such laws enacted.

While Trump would obviously make things worse, I'm struggling to see Clinton making anything better. Who-ever wins, it's quite likely that there will be a huge racially related news story within the first 3 months for sure. While Clinton may address the problem in a more palatable way, I can't see her crippling the X to prison pipelines or removing bullshit search and seizure laws. Or any significant change in law that is an actual progressive move. The Sheriff Joes will continue as normal regardless of who is in control. And as long as you have Sheriff Joes, you'll get a whole heap of unjust racist bullshit.

A change of president does not mean that all the idiot TSA/Border agents/what-have-you's will suddenly just stop their shit. With a republican in charge it may get worse. With a democrat in charge, I'd say it's likely to stay the same, at best.
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Junkenstein

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #412 on: March 29, 2016, 02:58:11 pm »
As an aside, I would love to be proven wrong and have Clinton works miracles and fix all manner of social ills.

I just think it's massively unrealistic to expect any of that from anyone. I also doubt any of the candidates are particularly inclined to do so. After all, the revenue streams are mutual.

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #413 on: March 29, 2016, 04:14:09 pm »
It's sort of like proving a negative.  If Clinton wins, you can only speculate what horrible manner of shit the current crop of GOP candidates would have done. 

I ask myself, "is it more probable than not Trump or Cruz would do something spectacularly disastrous as president as opposed to Clinton?"

I find the answer to be yes.

And to belabor a point, boycotting the election means not casting votes for local and state races as well as the presidential.  Which maintains the current conservative status quo.

To combine both our viewpoints, I wonder if anyone has suggested not voting in the presidential race, but still voting local and state?  Because to me, that's a tad more ideologically acceptable.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #414 on: March 29, 2016, 04:40:24 pm »

But that would make me a really shitty human.

Yeah, well, guilty as charged.  I hate the electorate, damn near everyone to be honest.   I don't see any fucking reason to jump in the shit pit.  Especially when both factions on "my side" spend all day telling me what a total shitburger, racist, corporate whore, whatever, I must be if I am interested in the other faction.  So fuck it.  I have no use for them, and they will just have to live without my .000000001% of the decision.  This goes for both Hillary Clinton's faction and Bernie Sanders' faction.  A plague on everyone's house.
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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #415 on: March 29, 2016, 04:41:36 pm »

But that would make me a really shitty human.

Yeah, well, guilty as charged.  I hate the electorate, damn near everyone to be honest.   I don't see any fucking reason to jump in the shit pit.  Especially when both factions on "my side" spend all day telling me what a total shitburger, racist, corporate whore, whatever, I must be if I am interested in the other faction.  So fuck it.  I have no use for them, and they will just have to live without my .000000001% of the decision.  This goes for both Hillary Clinton's faction and Bernie Sanders' faction.  A plague on everyone's house.


To be clear, I am not calling you a shitty human.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #416 on: March 29, 2016, 04:43:03 pm »

But that would make me a really shitty human.

Yeah, well, guilty as charged.  I hate the electorate, damn near everyone to be honest.   I don't see any fucking reason to jump in the shit pit.  Especially when both factions on "my side" spend all day telling me what a total shitburger, racist, corporate whore, whatever, I must be if I am interested in the other faction.  So fuck it.  I have no use for them, and they will just have to live without my .000000001% of the decision.  This goes for both Hillary Clinton's faction and Bernie Sanders' faction.  A plague on everyone's house.


To be clear, I am not calling you a shitty human.

I got that part.  :lol:

But you are a bit of an outlier in that regard.  :lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Faust

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #417 on: March 29, 2016, 05:03:31 pm »
That seems so insulting, vote or don't for whomever you want. That's your personal contract and voice within society and calling it a privilege is one of the most disgusting things I can think of, you said it before: A privilege is something that can be withdrawn. Voting is a right, which had to be fought for, telling someone there is personally something wrong with them for exercising that right to me seems defeating of the purpose of the exercise: Why vote at all, we will pick the right candidate for you.

The lack of selection does limit the scope of that expression but thats not an argument to vote for the least-worst-candidate, thats an indicator of a need for full reform.

Not to harp on with comparisons to here but we just had our election...
In Ireland we have had one of the odder outcomes of what can come of a multi party system: the distribution of votes has been almost equal to all parties, none able to form a government without going into power with at least two of its rivals.

In fact some parties are deliberately trying to stay out of government despite having slightly higher numbers because they will be destroyed when the next election comes. Its cool because what the people have effectively said to the lot is "fuck you" and its resulted in a paralysed government that even if it forms will be unable to pass any kind of contentious issue (for better or worse).
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 05:09:44 pm by Faust »
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #418 on: March 29, 2016, 05:06:32 pm »
That seems so insulting, vote or don't for whomever you want. That's your personal contract and voice within society and calling it a privilege is one of the most disgusting things I can think of, you said it before: A privilege is something that can be withdrawn. Voting is a right, which had to be fought for, telling someone there is personally something wrong with them for exercising that right to me seems defeating of the purpose of the exercise: Why vote at all, we will pick the right candidate for you.

That's how American politics IS, this time around.  The tea party ate everything, on both sides of the aisle.  So now you have to be "pure" enough, or you're just another shitlord.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Junkenstein

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Re: Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.
« Reply #419 on: March 29, 2016, 05:26:50 pm »
Quote
To combine both our viewpoints, I wonder if anyone has suggested not voting in the presidential race, but still voting local and state?  Because to me, that's a tad more ideologically acceptable.

This is interesting. The presidential race gets a lot of focus due to the nature of the role. However day to day life is probably affected by the local/state laws far more frequently. Or instances where the power of the state is in question to the power of the federal government (Pot laws for instance. No more needs said)

Candidates at these levels are typically far more moderate regardless of affiliation. Some may even be human beings, statistically speaking.

This makes me think that the office of president should probably take a bit of a knock in terms of power to reduce any president to a figurehead and little more. It's arguably been quite a while since a "good" president, so why bother with it if the only people who get the job are fuckups? It would allow the public to just elect who-ever with little real consequence beyond quality of meaningless soundbites. Trump can rant all he wants provided he has no power to actually do anything as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for any other candidate, really.


And for the record, Roger may or may not being a shitty human is not up for debate due to irrelevance. The committee is currently in session  to determine the quality of his lizardness.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.