Author Topic: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever  (Read 4484 times)

LMNO

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2016, 01:36:20 pm »
So, it's a bad thing to call racists racist?

I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.
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Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2016, 02:03:48 pm »
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't call out racist behaviour... intolerance left unchecked is only likely to get worse.

However
eight years of liberal progressiveness has apparently alienated a large portion of the population and there's only so much banging your head against the wall one can do before your brain starts leaking out of your ears.

I can't believe that every person who voted Trump is a racist of the cross-burning, hood-wearing variety and I think that lumping them all together under that umbrella is damaging to 'the cause' of social progress.

Alright a lot of them might be like that and maybe they voted along those lines. But all of them? Come on. The reasons surely differ from person to person.

By exploring those reasons maybe we can discover some handles with which to steer the runaway train that is global society.
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LMNO

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2016, 02:12:00 pm »
You don't have to burn a cross to be racist.  You just have to believe some people don't have as many rights as others.

Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2016, 03:00:49 pm »
You don't have to burn a cross to be racist.  You just have to believe some people don't have as many rights as others.

OK I agree with the jist of what you're saying here (although one could infer from the above that if you think women shouldn't have as many rights that makes you racist).

I guess my point is that thinking of people as inherently either 'racist' or 'not racist' isn't a very productive categorisation. As with all things, there's a sliding scale of racism and there are, like it or not, cultural and socioeconomic reasons why someone who is otherwise in full control of their faculties might harbour some ideas that could be construed as racist when taken to their logical conclusions.

Shouting at them "That makes you a racist and you should feel bad about that." Probably doesn't help because, to them, they might not have even considered the racial element before forming their ideas.

Now, one could argue that not considering the impact that your actions are going to have on those of other races is racist in and of itself but from the standpoint of this discussion i'd frame it more as ignorance/myopic self interest.
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LMNO

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2016, 03:11:32 pm »
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).

Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2016, 03:57:36 pm »
I don't know man - there probably isn't a polite way of saying it, no. Telling someone that you think they are wrong is going to raise heckles however it's said.

And i'll admit, I don't have a lot of historical knowledge about how bigotry has been combatted in the past so maybe (probably) you're right and pointing it out is an effective way of challenging it. I mean - whichever way you cut it, civil liberties in the US have gradually been improving, which, I guess is an indicator that the status quo is working.

However we've still got President Trump.
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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2016, 04:22:04 pm »
I'm sorry, is there a polite way to say, "you're being a bigot"?  (changed racist to bigot to avoid pedantic counterarguments)

You dont get it. In your bubble calling someone a bigot means something. To these people it means nothing. All youre doing is throwing insults that dont have any power over them to begin with. Its like if you walked up to an ISIS fighter and said "You hate democracy" Is it supposed to accomplish something? You have to actually offer an alternative to Bigotry that is attractive to them.

Quote
And also, it seems to me that most civil and human rights causes have consistently said to call people out on their bigotry? 

Silence = Death, and all that (lord, I'm old enough to remember that one).

Yeah. But they also had other things to do than lecture people. Look at gay rights. There are a lot of people who used to be against homosexuality who are now for gay marriage. This did not happen by acting smarter than them and insulting them. In fact there have been studies done on this very question. The two things that convinced people the most in this order were:

1) The Coming Out movment. When gays are some shady weirdos in San Francisco theyre easy to hate. When it turn out gays are the guy in your office, your best friend, your brother, its harder. People actually got to know gay people and see that they werent so bad.

2) Research on the biological roots of homosexuality. Its hard to hate people for something they cant control and were basically born with.

Remember the Civil Rights movement? Do you really think they got ANYWHERE by screeching racist at everyone at a time when Racist was the status quo? Do you honestly think that was the core of their strategy? Do you think that no minds were actually changed at all?

Youve given up on persuasion because you are incapable of it. The fact that you think persuasion is just calling them racists more politely proves this. Your entire movement has trapped itself in a bubble of enforcing goodrightthink at all costs and have completely lost touch with how people actually think. You are never going to get anywhere with the outgroup with your ingroup memes. Stop trying to figure this out on PD, find the outgroup and expose the shit out of yourself to them. Stop filtering them out and actually deal with them. It probably wont be pleasant. You will in fact be offended. But until you do you will have no ability to communicate with them and your only options will be to give up or just kill them.

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2016, 04:26:51 pm »
And by the way, the average Trump voter, I have dealt with them on a regular basis both online and offline since his campaign started, is WAY more unpleasant than me. If you cant deal with my shitposting then the Australians are going to bring you to tears.

LMNO

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2016, 04:50:48 pm »
Keep fucking that chicken, pal.

Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2016, 05:47:13 pm »
I know i've posted this guy a couple of times recently but he makes a number of good points, one of which is:

Quote
Not everyone that voted for Trump is a sexist or a racist... how many times does the vote not have to go our way before we realise the argument isn't won by hurling labels and insults... if you are unwilling to discuss you are creating the conditions that allow Trump... to thrive.

President Trump: How and Why... by Jonathan Pie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs


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LMNO

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2016, 06:19:44 pm »
What discussion? "I'm voting for someone who wants to create a national registry for any and all muslims in the country."

...

Uh, that's racist?

"Fuck you!"

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2016, 06:42:35 pm »
I know i've posted this guy a couple of times recently but he makes a number of good points, one of which is:

Quote
Not everyone that voted for Trump is a sexist or a racist... how many times does the vote not have to go our way before we realise the argument isn't won by hurling labels and insults... if you are unwilling to discuss you are creating the conditions that allow Trump... to thrive.

President Trump: How and Why... by Jonathan Pie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs

The fallacy here is that they are using "sexist" and "racist" as nouns. They aren't nouns, they are adjectives. Sexism and racism aren't things you ARE, they are ideas and attitudes you HAVE that influence how you think of and treat other people. The most common form of sexism and racism is simple disregard.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2016, 06:46:22 pm »
This is why, when you point out to someone that they have done or said something racist, if they respond with "I AM NOT A RACIST" there is no conversation you can have. They have decided that "A Racist" is a type of monster, a bad guy, and since they aren't a bad guy they can't be "a racist". This pattern of thinking completely shuts down dialogue about racism by redefining it from something ordinary people do all the time without thinking about it, to something done consciously and with intent by terrible people.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


LMNO

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2016, 07:20:27 pm »
Would "you're acting racist" work better?   Not a troll, an honest question.  I know semantics is largely bullshit, but if it's more accurate, and easier to accept, than maybe?

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 1 of Whatever
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2016, 07:23:15 pm »
What discussion? "I'm voting for someone who wants to create a national registry for any and all muslims in the country."

...

[Alternative less horrifying plan to deal with the same problem]

^This. This is what you do.