Author Topic: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization  (Read 770 times)

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How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« on: November 10, 2016, 10:59:21 pm »
    Theres a certain question that liberals like to ask themselves. What is the matter with Kansas? Simply, what is it that keeps redstate voters from voting in their self interest(by which they mean Democrat)? There are two schools of thought on this that are both flawed in the exact same way.
   
    The first is that inside every Kansanite there is a new deal democrat who has been subtly manipulated and conned by the right in this country into voting Republican. The second, the Corey Robin school of thought, is that there is no FDR trapped inside Bubba the Redneck, thats its just Bubba the Redneck all the way down. That deep deep down these people are motivated by nothing but irrational hatreds towards blacks and gays and people who dont believe in Jesus.
   
    The mistake both of these make is Patholigization. They start from the assumption that these peoples actions are exceptionally irrational. That they have no legitimate grievance against Liberal politicians and therefore all grievances they air must be illegitimate. This isnt just condescending, it betrays a fundamental ignorance of policies of Democrats and their consequences. And it locks you in a loop of ignorance because you accept as an axiom that these consequences do not exist.

    Im going to use NAFTA as an example simply because not only was it a key part of Trumps platform, so many liberals Ive tried to talk to are completely ignorant of how important it is to his audience. If you ever want to understand how Trump won, just take a road trip through the rust belt. They dont call it the rust belt for nothing. If youve got all your tetnis shots its an Urban Explorers paradise. Whole factories, sometimes with the machines still in them, abandoned for years. Empty warehouses, shopping malls with more vacancies than stores, rusted broken railroad tracks that run right through the middle of town from Trains that stopped running years ago. Empty houses too, no overcrowding problems here, massive cities that lose a whole quarter of their population in five years. In small towns its worse. Anyone whith any kind of promise, any kind of talent, any kind of money saved up, gets gone and gets gone fast. One day youre walking down a completely empty street next to house whos roof fell in and no one ever bothered to fix it, then you realize that everyone you grew up with either moved away, killed themselves or got hooked on heroin. Its when youve put in an application at literally every place in town and no one ever calls, then you know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who MIGHT get you an interview at mcdonalds. Then you get there and you get 10 hours a week. And then you see middle aged single mothers working the same 10 hours a week to try and keep their house afloat. Imagine being sexually harrassed by the owners brother while he sells pain pills to people on break, and having to put up with it because you dont have another job and without this one you dont know how youre gong to pay for your chemo bills. Ive seen it. Imagine finally getting a "nice" factory job, that occasionally doesnt have gloves, or goggles, or breathing masks, or lightbulbs so you can see what youre doing in a dark sweaty shithole that never gets cleaned. Then one day after working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 5 months theyve just closed their doors. Theres no work to be done. No work today. Or tomorrow. Or next week. Or next month. Have fun wth a new job search, hope you know a guy who knows a guy who... Its futility. Not just economic futility. It seeps into everything. You want to know how people can unironically follow a religion about rapping clowns? People just get pregnant in the 10th grade not because they dont have birth control but because they dont see the point in waiting. They get huge fucking gauges in their ears, they get homemade ballpoint ink and safetypin face tattoos, they dont even bother hiding the trackmarks on their arms with sleeves. People just give up.

    And it wasnt always like this. There was a time when these places were thriving. When people had real blue collar CAREERS, there actually was such a thing. These peoples jobs didnt get "innovated" away, they didnt get replaced by robots, they didnt lose demand, they got shipped overseas. So people in sky scrapers on the east coast could report .5% more growth this quarter and then go to a thousand dollar strip club to celebrate. So you could get new windshield wipers for five bucks less. The magic of Globalization. It didnt start with NAFTA, but NAFTA was when it kicked into maximum overdrive. NAFTA was the government taking the breaks off Globalization and letting it REALLY run the working class over. Oh but there were gains. Of course there were gains. The Economy, here defined as numbers on spreadsheets, soared. Everyone pat themsleves on the back. Liberals to this day will talk with a straight face about how wonderful Bill Clinton was for the Economy. And the rust belt got rustier, and angrier.
   
    Republicans havent been perfect to these people, but they havent pulled shit like fucking NAFTA. And the second a Democrat gets into office a second time, we get the fucking TPP, "NAFTA on Steroids." Trumps platform has been overwhelmingly against not only the TPP, but NAFTA and outsourcing in general. Clintons campaign seemed to understand that the TPP was poison and made a disingenuous flip flop as revealed by Wikileaks. Do you wonder why Trump took the entire rust belt?
   
    But no one wants to hear this. The left does not want to admit how much of a disaster these trade policies have been and would be if put into place. Theyd rather think their opponents are all ignorant, superstitious, racist or some combination of the three. Bernie Sanders at the very least understood this, he opposed both NAFTA and the TPP. He could have turned a lot of those states Blue. These people are not "Nazis." They already voted for Obama twice, before the TPP.
   
    But until you stop trying to understand them like lab specimins and stop lecturing them like school children, until you actually LISTEN to what they care about from their own mouths and not John Olivers screeching dental-hygienic disaster of a tea-hole you will never understand them. You will never reach them. You will never change their minds away from Trump.
   
    It bears repeating, if Trump is a Nazi and he actually cares about these peoples problems and tries to fix them. Is that supposed to be an argument against Nazis? You need to be better than the Nazis because right now to a large portion of America they look more appealing than you. And thats YOUR fault.

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 11:33:48 pm »
Who the fuck are you talking about?
I can only assume that you think PD is populated by disconnected billionaires.

I live in Winston Salem. I grew up in the shadow of the brick and steel dump that RJ Reynolds left before they fucked off.
But, of course, all liberals are the gauge wearing, starbucks drinking ess jay dubble yew millennials that Sargon of Akkad or whoever the fuck tells you are ruining the world.

If you look at any "liberal run" media outlet, you'll quickly notice a group of words that are appearing often right now.
"Poor, angy, disenfranchised blue collar whites". This isn't news to anyone. Every liberal I know was ardently against the TPP. Even if you're not a blue collar worker, most artists despise what it does to copyright law. There are reasons why most Hillary supporters didn't like Hillary all that much.
A wise man once said "What was that? I couldn't hear you."

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 12:01:20 am »
Who the fuck are you talking about?
I can only assume that you think PD is populated by disconnected billionaires.

I live in Winston Salem. I grew up in the shadow of the brick and steel dump that RJ Reynolds left before they fucked off.
But, of course, all liberals are the gauge wearing, starbucks drinking ess jay dubble yew millennials that Sargon of Akkad or whoever the fuck tells you are ruining the world.

If you look at any "liberal run" media outlet, you'll quickly notice a group of words that are appearing often right now.
"Poor, angy, disenfranchised blue collar whites". This isn't news to anyone. Every liberal I know was ardently against the TPP. Even if you're not a blue collar worker, most artists despise what it does to copyright law. There are reasons why most Hillary supporters didn't like Hillary all that much.

When I say "liberals" I dont mean "PD." So far youve been pretty sharp about all of this, Im talking more about the people who say things like "I have no idea how this happened" "I dont know what to say" which overlaps greatly with people who said that Trump COULDNT happen. The only way you could be shocked by Trump winning is if you spent the election in a bubble. If you didnt see the Trump signs popping up in poor neighborhoods and slowly becoming ubiquitous because you never go near them. Thats what this is about, how the left built such a bubble that they convinced themselves Clinton could honestly beat Trump.

Yeah those words are appearing, NOW. Hindsight is 20/20. But leading up to the election there was an honest debate among the left if Trumps working class support was even real. With now famously wrong Nate Silver even chiming in that it was a myth. If the left plans on ever winning again in the future it(as a whole) needs to escape its bubble. And while there is talk about that, I dont know if they can honestly do it. The bubble is comfy because you never have to deal with anyone you really dont like. The bubble makes you feel smarter than you are because the bubble has an answer for everything. While theres talk about trying to reach the people that voted for Trump Im seeing a lot more of people decrying the end of Democracy as we know it, or hitting the same talking points about the racism/sexism of America over and over again. Most importantly, lots of people are getting this lesson not from actually dealing with these people, but from being informed about them from the same bubble that was wrong about everything. When the next election comes even if theyve taken these lessons to heart they still wont be actually dealing with these people and seeing how they are responding.

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2016, 12:21:50 am »
You know, something has been bothering me for days. You said that you are an Eco-fascist and cited Pentti Linkola as an influence but that was in the context of a rant about the evils of environmentally driven increases in rates of autism and decreasing fertility levels. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't you be in favour of these, both of which would tend towards the limitation or reduction of population growth?

Quote
Any dictatorship would be better than modern democracy. There cannot be so incompetent a dictator, that he would show more stupidity than a majority of the people. Best dictatorship would be one where lots of heads would roll and government would prevent any economical growth.
Pentti Linkola

Quote
...the chief cause for the impending collapse of the world - the cause sufficient in and by itself - is the enormous growth of the human population: the human flood. The worst enemy of life is too much life: the excess of human life.
Pentti Linkola

Quote
The most central and irrational faith among people is the faith in technology and economical growth. Its priests believe until their death that material prosperity bring enjoyment and happiness - even though all the proofs in history have shown that only lack and attempt cause a life worth living, that the material prosperity doesn't bring anything else than despair. These priests believe in technology still when they choke in their gas masks.
Pentti Linkola

See, I'm not getting an "I have a greater empathy with and care more for the fate of the people of Kansas [other states are available] than the liberal elites do". I'm getting an uncomfortable "Well at least Trump will make the trains run on time" vibe. And we all know who is going to be on That sort of train don't we? The Moslems and the Mexicans and anyone smudgy who can't prove that they aren't an undocumented immigrant because they just look wrong, and those queers, and those socialists and it wouldn't be a party without those Jews, oh yeah, and anyone who gets "too uppity", yanno?
If the answer is Donald J Trump then it must have been a fucking stupid question.
Trump cultists; "and some, I assume, are good people"
Collusion??? ~ "If it truly was a nothingburger, there’s nothing here, why not open the kimono?”

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2016, 12:24:12 am »
America's means of production changed.  The US couldn't compete with other countries. So manufacturing plants closed.

Then, natural gas made more profits than coal. So coal plants closed.

People who worked in manufacturing and coal lost their jobs. Because capitalism.

Yeah, they're pissed. They think their country left them behind. In a way, it did. But nothing the government can do will fix it. No hollow lies from a politician will turn back the clock to 1950.

No, I don't have a solution. It's true, our politicians, from both sides of the isle, let down these people. I'm not sure how they could have helped, with the political environment as it was/is.

But it doesn't help to tell them you can make things the way they used to be.

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 12:34:26 am »
You know, something has been bothering me for days. You said that you are an Eco-fascist and cited Pentti Linkola as an influence but that was in the context of a rant about the evils of environmentally driven increases in rates of autism and decreasing fertility levels. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't you be in favour of these, both of which would tend towards the limitation or reduction of population growth?

Rendering most of the earth so poison that mammalian life cannot reproduce is not a solution to population growth. And I dont think population reduction of that kind is really necessarily at the current moment. There is enough on this earth for every person on it to live a good life, that does not include playstation and McDonalds.

Quote
See, I'm not getting an "I have a greater empathy with and care more for the fate of the people of Kansas [other states are available] than the liberal elites do". I'm getting an uncomfortable "Well at least Trump will make the trains run on time" vibe. And we all know who is going to be on That sort of train don't we? The Moslems and the Mexicans and anyone smudgy who can't prove that they aren't an undocumented immigrant because they just look wrong, and those queers, and those socialists and it wouldn't be a party without those Jews, oh yeah, and anyone who gets "too uppity", yanno?

No no no. For the last time Trump isnt a fascist. Fascists come AFTER Trump.

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2016, 12:40:08 am »
Look, if you are going to keep repeating the same catch-phrase you are going to have to unpack it some because believe me it is not self-explanatory. If Trump is not a fascist, by your definition, then what is he?
If the answer is Donald J Trump then it must have been a fucking stupid question.
Trump cultists; "and some, I assume, are good people"
Collusion??? ~ "If it truly was a nothingburger, there’s nothing here, why not open the kimono?”

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 12:48:27 am »
America's means of production changed.  The US couldn't compete with other countries. So manufacturing plants closed.

Then, natural gas made more profits than coal. So coal plants closed.

People who worked in manufacturing and coal lost their jobs. Because capitalism.

Yeah, they're pissed. They think their country left them behind. In a way, it did. But nothing the government can do will fix it. No hollow lies from a politician will turn back the clock to 1950.

No, I don't have a solution. It's true, our politicians, from both sides of the isle, let down these people. I'm not sure how they could have helped, with the political environment as it was/is.

But it doesn't help to tell them you can make things the way they used to be.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/12/11/outsourcing-to-china-cost-us-32-million-jobs-since-2001

You cant just ignore outsourcing or the fact that legislation like NAFTA effectively condoned it, and legislation like TPP wants to expand it even more. These are all jobs that could be in America. That were in America without problem. There was no crisis which forced the innocent business people to move the jobs overseas, thats a managment lie. There was only greed, and its enablement by our government.

Any future platform that wants to win votes from Trumpism and the new right has to offer a solution to this.

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2016, 12:51:47 am »
Look, if you are going to keep repeating the same catch-phrase you are going to have to unpack it some because believe me it is not self-explanatory. If Trump is not a fascist, by your definition, then what is he?

Its not my definition its Ernst Nolte's. Trump is a neoliberal populist. Yes thats a contradiction, which is why I dont have much faith in him making America great again.

If you want to know what fascism actually is besides a buzzword read this: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=37935.msg1400301#msg1400301

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2016, 02:51:05 am »
Look, if you are going to keep repeating the same catch-phrase you are going to have to unpack it some because believe me it is not self-explanatory. If Trump is not a fascist, by your definition, then what is he?

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)
Its not my definition its Ernst Nolte's. Trump is a neoliberal populist. Yes thats a contradiction, which is why I dont have much faith in him making America great again.
Me either. Nolte was a Nazi apologist and holocaust denier so you'll excuse me if I don't accept his definitions, not that I can find any reference of his to Trump. I will offer an alternative, admittedly leftish-wing piece on Trump's political position
Quote
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/31/trumps-economic-view-is-far-from-neoliberal-but-it-rides-a-populist-wave

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)
If you want to know what fascism actually is besides a buzzword read this: [url
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=37935.msg1400301#msg1400301[/url]
LOL. While I am not quite old enough to remember the War I when was being brought up the nature of fascism was very much a key element of my learning environment. So thanks but I know its not a buzzword.
My choice of definition is considerably less Nazi-apologist than Nolte and much tighter and more accurate than the one you offer [sorry, but I speak as I find]
Quote
"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites , abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
- Robert Paxton

Paxton's features of generic fascism may also look a bit familiar to anyone who has been reading the Newspapers recently
Quote
The primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether universal or individual.

The belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment which justifies any action against the group's enemies, internal as well as external.

Dread of the group's decadence under the corrosive effect of individualistic and cosmopolitan liberalism.

Closer integration of the community within a brotherhood (fascio) whose unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary.

An enhanced sense of identity and belonging, in which the grandeur of the group reinforces individual self-esteem.

Authority of natural leaders (always male) throughout society, culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group's destiny.

The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle

 (Robert O. Paxton, "The Five Stages of Fascism," The Journal of Modern History 70 (March 1998): pp. 3-5.)
If the answer is Donald J Trump then it must have been a fucking stupid question.
Trump cultists; "and some, I assume, are good people"
Collusion??? ~ "If it truly was a nothingburger, there’s nothing here, why not open the kimono?”

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Re: How Trump Happened Part 2: Pathologization
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2016, 05:17:41 am »
Look, if you are going to keep repeating the same catch-phrase you are going to have to unpack it some because believe me it is not self-explanatory. If Trump is not a fascist, by your definition, then what is he?

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)
Its not my definition its Ernst Nolte's. Trump is a neoliberal populist. Yes thats a contradiction, which is why I dont have much faith in him making America great again.
Me either. Nolte was a Nazi apologist and holocaust denier so you'll excuse me if I don't accept his definitions, not that I can find any reference of his to Trump. I will offer an alternative, admittedly leftish-wing piece on Trump's political position
Quote
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/31/trumps-economic-view-is-far-from-neoliberal-but-it-rides-a-populist-wave

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)
If you want to know what fascism actually is besides a buzzword read this: [url
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=37935.msg1400301#msg1400301[/url]
LOL. While I am not quite old enough to remember the War I when was being brought up the nature of fascism was very much a key element of my learning environment. So thanks but I know its not a buzzword.
My choice of definition is considerably less Nazi-apologist than Nolte and much tighter and more accurate than the one you offer [sorry, but I speak as I find]
Quote
"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites , abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
- Robert Paxton

Paxton's features of generic fascism may also look a bit familiar to anyone who has been reading the Newspapers recently
Quote
The primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether universal or individual.

The belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment which justifies any action against the group's enemies, internal as well as external.

Dread of the group's decadence under the corrosive effect of individualistic and cosmopolitan liberalism.

Closer integration of the community within a brotherhood (fascio) whose unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary.

An enhanced sense of identity and belonging, in which the grandeur of the group reinforces individual self-esteem.

Authority of natural leaders (always male) throughout society, culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group's destiny.

The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle

 (Robert O. Paxton, "The Five Stages of Fascism," The Journal of Modern History 70 (March 1998): pp. 3-5.)

Nolte is a Nazi-apologist now? He also wasnt a Holocaust denier, he made the argument that the holocaust wasnt special. And it wasnt, the Nazis didnt invent genocide. Even good old America had quite the genocide under its belt before the holocaust. But Israel is big on the Shoah as the single greatest tragedy in human history ever as an excuse to kick Palestinians so anyone who says this gets slandered as a holocaust denier.

Noltes definition takes precedent for me because he was the first person to argue that Fascism was even a thing outside of Italy and its use as a Soviet buzzword. Without Nolte there wouldnt even be a study of Fascism, he literally coined the term as it is (mis)used today. No one outside of Italy in these movements called themselves fascists, or thought of themselves as being a singular movement. If you are talking about Fascism as a phenomenon you are talking about Noltes idea.

Quote
"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites , abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

But this is a less tight and accurate definition. For one thing the Nazis dont even check all these boxes. The "traditional elites" HATED Nazism and were behind most of the attempts on Hitlers life. The actual Italian Fascists themselves wouldnt fit this definition. They werent obsessed with internal cleansing violence, after they took power there wasnt any opposition for them to even be violent against. And while they wouldnt be perfect fits you could fit any number of movements into this. Social Justice would check several boxes, BLM would, modern Israel would, modern day fundamentalst Islam would, you could even make the argument that America went fascist long before Trump by this definition.

Obsessive preoccupation with community decline has been a cornerstone of American politics since the 80s.
Abandons democratic lberties, patriot act, the war on drugs.
Pursues redemptive violence, again, the war on drugs, mass militarized policing in general.
Goals of internal cleansing and external expansion, were in seven different wars right now to try and control the middle east.

Im guessing the whole POINT of this definition of fascism isnt to understand the authoritarian movements that happened in Europe after WW1 but simple to give a bit more structure to it as a buzzword.

It misses the all the most important features of Fascism, how it happens, WHY it happens. It focuses on opposition to liberalism while ignoring the Fascists historic opposition to CONSERVATISM too. The fact that you are pointing at Trump right now and going "thats fascism booo" its proof that it isnt. When fascism came to Italy and Germany it wasnt just a bunch of dumb hicks doing it. It was people like Ezra Pound and Heidegger. Artists, intellectuals, white collar workers, blue collar workers, well off and poor alike all united under one movement. Because to all of them, Fascism was a savior, it was saving them from the horrors of dysfunctional democracy.
   
   Trump isnt fascism hes dysfunctional democracy. Just look at all the people declaring that "democracy has failed." All the people who cheered Occupy now decrying "populism." If Trump doesnt make things better, and this is the most likely scenario, this sentiment will only grow and grow and grow. Until its a universal consensus that the system simply does not, CANNOT work. Then fascism will come. It wont call itself fascism and I can guarantee that you will cheer for it. Every last one of you. Sean Hannity, Jon Stewart and Alex Jones will all hold hands and sing praises for the glorious new system which has saved us from the old.

  And you all will cheer for it. You arent ready now, but lets see how you all feel about Democracy after  more years of Trump.