Author Topic: WHERE'S YOUR GODWIN, NOW?  (Read 8372 times)

Salty

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WHERE'S YOUR GODWIN, NOW?
« on: November 17, 2016, 06:43:01 pm »
That was after you called me a child, silly! Keep UP.

I didn't call you a child; I said that opinions were like children: those who have them are usually the ones least qualified. It's an addage that I've been saying for years. I wasn't making a comment on your particular opinions, but simply responding to the twist on the "opinions are like assholes" saying.

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As for Godwin. This has been bugging me all election.

Godwin's law applies when in the midst of an argument you call your opponent a NAZI or Hitler as a means of defending your point. My point is that the right just elected a president with actual NAZI ideology, as opposed to conservative ideology.

Since Godwin's Law isn't formal, it has been long-since (unspokenly) amended to include people who accuse others of being literal Nazis as a form of hyperbole.

If you honestly, truly believe that someone is an actual Nazi, you've got a pretty big burden of proof resting on your shoulders if you're going to invoke that opinion in an argument. Most of the time, you'll just not be taken seriously and people will assume that you're being hyperbolic and vitriolic.

This is a perfect distillation of the argument I have only been able to touch upon on FB.

I can't find the source, but some years ago I read about Ken Kesey speaking at some rally. I think he was just walking by one and somebody noticed him and asked him to speak. He gets to the podium and says something to effect of: "You know what you people are doing with the marching and the banner waving and chants, it's basically the same method used by the NAZIs to take power". I think he was just talking from an aesthetic perspective, perhaps implying that taking steps to create positive societal change isn't waving banners and chanting. I don't know if he was right or wrong, but I always thought it was funny

That's no doubt a rougher version than what actually happened, but the point is clear, and hilarious. While Trump may or may not hit every check-box for Totally Legit NAZI, the people that voted for him could easily be seen as voting Hitler in. The zealousness. The same exact thing could be said for all the Bernie Bros, not all his supporters, just those who would not listen to reason, those who simply refused to see anything beyond black and white terms. Especially, when it comes to race.

I have meandered a little bit here....
Oh yeah, does Godwin apply when you call a NAZI a NAZI?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 07:45:01 pm by Salty »
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Salty

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 06:49:47 pm »
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The best way to prevent future holocausts, I believe, is not to forbear from Holocaust comparisons; instead, it’s to make sure that those comparisons are meaningful and substantive.

This is critical. My words are typically carefully measured.

I think the flip side of this coin is the over-load of inaccurate NAZI comparisons make it more difficult to make accurate ones without it being seen as hyperbole. People just switch off as soon as they see the word NAZI. Just roll the eyes and move along, is the usual reaction I have got anyway.
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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 07:47:22 pm »
Quote
The best way to prevent future holocausts, I believe, is not to forbear from Holocaust comparisons; instead, it’s to make sure that those comparisons are meaningful and substantive.

This is critical. My words are typically carefully measured.

I think the flip side of this coin is the over-load of inaccurate NAZI comparisons make it more difficult to make accurate ones without it being seen as hyperbole. People just switch off as soon as they see the word NAZI. Just roll the eyes and move along, is the usual reaction I have got anyway.

Well, the thing is that people who genuinely attempt to draw parallels between modern politics and Nazi Germany almost never present a convincing argument. They do little more than conflate human nature in one situation with human nature in the other.

"Obama is a good speaker. People blindly follow him. Hitler was a good speaker, and people blindly followed him. Therefore, Obama is like Hitler."

or

"People voted for Hitler because they were fearful, resentful, and bigoted. People voted for Trump because they are fearful, resentful, and bigoted. Therefore, Trump's election is like Hitler's election."

This is pseudo-intellectualism that doesn't justify the comparison. In these kinds of arguments, the differences are more important than the subtle similarities.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Salty

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2016, 07:56:37 pm »
Quote
The best way to prevent future holocausts, I believe, is not to forbear from Holocaust comparisons; instead, it’s to make sure that those comparisons are meaningful and substantive.

This is critical. My words are typically carefully measured.

I think the flip side of this coin is the over-load of inaccurate NAZI comparisons make it more difficult to make accurate ones without it being seen as hyperbole. People just switch off as soon as they see the word NAZI. Just roll the eyes and move along, is the usual reaction I have got anyway.

Well, the thing is that people who genuinely attempt to draw parallels between modern politics and Nazi Germany almost never present a convincing argument. They do little more than conflate human nature in one situation with human nature in the other.

"Obama is a good speaker. People blindly follow him. Hitler was a good speaker, and people blindly followed him. Therefore, Obama is like Hitler."

or

"People voted for Hitler because they were fearful, resentful, and bigoted. People voted for Trump because they are fearful, resentful, and bigoted. Therefore, Trump's election is like Hitler's election."

This is pseudo-intellectualism that doesn't justify the comparison. In these kinds of arguments, the differences are more important than the subtle similarities.

I feel like you have a habit of creating false dichotomies, seeing things as blackvswhite.

You are presenting two sides that are not the full extent of either and calling it pseudo-intellectual. You are only presenting a small aspect of the similarities between Hitler's rise to power and Donald Trumps. You are also ignoring whole aspects. It's not JUST the attitude of people that have voted for him, it's his OWN actions and behaviors. I mean, did or did he not, as a major platform for his campaign, promise to ban Muslims from entering this country? Are there not many other things he himself has done and said that are xenophobic, nationalistic, etc? I also offered evidence in the other thread. There's PLENTY more out there, if you'd like me to post it all here.
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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2016, 08:14:58 pm »
Quote
The best way to prevent future holocausts, I believe, is not to forbear from Holocaust comparisons; instead, it’s to make sure that those comparisons are meaningful and substantive.

This is critical. My words are typically carefully measured.

I think the flip side of this coin is the over-load of inaccurate NAZI comparisons make it more difficult to make accurate ones without it being seen as hyperbole. People just switch off as soon as they see the word NAZI. Just roll the eyes and move along, is the usual reaction I have got anyway.

Well, the thing is that people who genuinely attempt to draw parallels between modern politics and Nazi Germany almost never present a convincing argument. They do little more than conflate human nature in one situation with human nature in the other.

"Obama is a good speaker. People blindly follow him. Hitler was a good speaker, and people blindly followed him. Therefore, Obama is like Hitler."

or

"People voted for Hitler because they were fearful, resentful, and bigoted. People voted for Trump because they are fearful, resentful, and bigoted. Therefore, Trump's election is like Hitler's election."

This is pseudo-intellectualism that doesn't justify the comparison. In these kinds of arguments, the differences are more important than the subtle similarities.

I feel like you have a habit of creating false dichotomies, seeing things as blackvswhite.

You are presenting two sides that are not the full extent of either and calling it pseudo-intellectual. You are only presenting a small aspect of the similarities between Hitler's rise to power and Donald Trumps. You are also ignoring whole aspects. It's not JUST the attitude of people that have voted for him, it's his OWN actions and behaviors. I mean, did or did he not, as a major platform for his campaign, promise to ban Muslims from entering this country? Are there not many other things he himself has done and said that are xenophobic, nationalistic, etc? I also offered evidence in the other thread. There's PLENTY more out there, if you'd like me to post it all here.

You mistake my response as an invitation to debate whether or not Trump is genuinely comparable to Hitler. If your goal is to provide a convincing argument towards that end, you have a lot of work ahead of you.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 08:17:11 pm by chinagreenelvis »
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Salty

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2016, 08:20:13 pm »
Haha, thanks, I'll pass.  :roll:
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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 01:53:31 am »
Personally I think he reminds me more of Mussolini (furthermore, I suggest we try to start a trend of mockingly calling him "Il Douchebag" {instead of "il duce", get it})
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 02:37:10 am »
Godwin's Law:

Quote
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"

Doesn't really apply if you're talking about actual Nazis.
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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2016, 02:59:57 am »
Godwin's Law:

Quote
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"

Doesn't really apply if you're talking about actual Nazis.

Especially when you have free reign to define the word "Nazi" however you see fit.
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Salty

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 03:02:02 am »
Godwin's Law:

Quote
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"

Doesn't really apply if you're talking about actual Nazis.

Especially when you have free reign to define the word "Nazi" however you see fit.

 :rwhn:
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Salty

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2016, 03:06:28 am »
Natürlich, ich tu mit den Sprache was ich möchte. Was ist überhaupt ein NAZI? ERKLÄRE IS MIR!
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Salty

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2016, 03:10:11 am »
Vieleich kannst Du für die reste den Klasse es explänieren, dammit wir einanander verstehen können. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 03:12:58 am by Vivat Alty »
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2016, 03:13:00 am »
Godwin's Law:

Quote
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"

Doesn't really apply if you're talking about actual Nazis.

Especially when you have free reign to define the word "Nazi" however you see fit.

Nope.  His stated goals are straight out of 1933.
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Re: Godwin's Law in the 21st Century
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2016, 03:23:36 am »
The litmus test of Godwin's Law is providing a meaningful comparison. That requires an awfully convincing argument that stands to scrutiny. Between this thread and what's been argued in "Protestors Are Assholes", I have yet to see a single one.

Hell, I haven't even seen an attempt at one. All you have to do is show up, say someone you don't like is literally a Nazi, and then watch the ensuing discussion destroy itself. You may as well just drop the fag bomb.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 03:25:52 am by chinagreenelvis »
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche