Author Topic: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live  (Read 4917 times)

nobodyhome

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2017, 10:57:24 am »
Not because I have any feeling for offenders.

It's wrong not only because of the justice issue, but more importantly, because it's ultimately not effective.

You should stop talking.


Are you presenting a utilitarian argument? Because if you are, I'd agree.


nobodyhome

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2017, 10:58:58 am »
On the other hand, there are some who disagree who one might think have more advanced credentials.

http://www.politifact.com/oregon/statements/2012/aug/03/steve-doell/has-measure-11-really-helped-halve-crime-rate-1995/

Faust

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2017, 11:27:45 am »
False Dichotomy: you asked about socially unjust laws. The crime rate can fall through an unfair mechanism, and still be unjust.

Example: Jailing all the homeless people would result in homelessness being "solved".

nobodyhome

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2017, 11:57:10 am »
False Dichotomy: you asked about socially unjust laws. The crime rate can fall through an unfair mechanism, and still be unjust.

Example: Jailing all the homeless people would result in homelessness being "solved".

That's totally true.

That's the problem. How to get the one without doing the other (and without all the emotional hand-wringing).

bugmenоt

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2017, 12:28:29 pm »
Some people are not allowed to come to the place where I live. Others are not allowed to leave. It's illegal to kill yourself (some explain this by the fact that the destruction of government property is illegal). You're allowed to build a tower, as long as it doesn't worship the Wrong God (TM). If you're a supermarket you can get in trouble if you give away food you couldn't sell. You're not allowed to take most things thrown away by others. We still have some weird Feudal age being-more-equal-than-others shit going on, but we're not supposed to make a big deal out of it. There still are unjust laws based on gender. Oh, and our constitution starts with the invocation of God, which may be the most severe insult to Her.

Faust

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2017, 12:32:57 pm »
False Dichotomy: you asked about socially unjust laws. The crime rate can fall through an unfair mechanism, and still be unjust.

Example: Jailing all the homeless people would result in homelessness being "solved".

That's totally true.

That's the problem. How to get the one without doing the other (and without all the emotional hand-wringing).

Feed forward control:
Root cause analysis as opposed to treating the symptoms. Certain crimes correlate to disenfranchised environments, and things like access to quality education, basic standards of living  etc reduce them.

Some crimes don't show any reduction regardless of enforcement policy: Heroin and drug use has never been as rampant, in every class and level of society: people want drugs, the only way to tackle that is reduce demand which means social change not legal.

Feed back control:
Encourage schemes that reduce recidivism. The American model is one of the worst in the world for recidivism, reduction of that is not a goal of for profit prison. In comparison the Norway model has a tenth of that. The core differences (apart from investment) are one acts as punitive, the other encourages responsibility of the individual and building them a trade to break an obvious repeating pattern.

Faust

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2017, 12:36:00 pm »
and our constitution starts with the invocation of God, which may be the most severe insult to Her.
So does ours, It's asking for trouble, it's the equivalent of waking her from a hangover.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2017, 03:19:16 pm »
False Dichotomy: you asked about socially unjust laws. The crime rate can fall through an unfair mechanism, and still be unjust.

Example: Jailing all the homeless people would result in homelessness being "solved".

That's totally true.

That's the problem. How to get the one without doing the other (and without all the emotional hand-wringing).

What, exactly, are you dismissing as "emotional hand-wringing"? You are coming across like one of those autistic kids who irrationally and ignorantly believes that emotions = bad, logic = good.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2017, 03:20:24 pm »
I am sincerely hoping you're just a kid. If you are an adult, the prognosis is hopeless stupidity.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Dildo Argentino

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2017, 04:32:46 am »
I'm not sure what's wrong with equal treatment under the law.

Nothing wrong with it. I wish some polity would try it one these days. But, as a matter of fact, the actual laws also matter, as kind people have been trying to explain to you.

Specifically, which statutes?

Specifically, which polity?

But, assuming your answer is any: Hungary, for instance, has completely revamped its criminal code. Personal debt is now (with some limitations) inheritable. Totally unjust. And you are required by law to contribute specific amounts of money to your parents' upkeep, should they be unable to fend for themselves. Totally unjust.
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

nobodyhome

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2017, 10:35:45 pm »
False Dichotomy: you asked about socially unjust laws. The crime rate can fall through an unfair mechanism, and still be unjust.

Example: Jailing all the homeless people would result in homelessness being "solved".

That's totally true.

That's the problem. How to get the one without doing the other (and without all the emotional hand-wringing).

Feed forward control:
Root cause analysis as opposed to treating the symptoms. Certain crimes correlate to disenfranchised environments, and things like access to quality education, basic standards of living  etc reduce them.

Some crimes don't show any reduction regardless of enforcement policy: Heroin and drug use has never been as rampant, in every class and level of society: people want drugs, the only way to tackle that is reduce demand which means social change not legal.

Feed back control:
Encourage schemes that reduce recidivism. The American model is one of the worst in the world for recidivism, reduction of that is not a goal of for profit prison. In comparison the Norway model has a tenth of that. The core differences (apart from investment) are one acts as punitive, the other encourages responsibility of the individual and building them a trade to break an obvious repeating pattern.

I agree with all this except the business of Norway. Norway's having problems with cultural issues now and certain kinds of crimes because of the cultures which have been imported.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiVVvJIM5UI

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2017, 11:21:46 pm »
I'm not sure what's wrong with equal treatment under the law.

Nothing wrong with it. I wish some polity would try it one these days. But, as a matter of fact, the actual laws also matter, as kind people have been trying to explain to you.

Specifically, which statutes?

Specifically, which polity?

But, assuming your answer is any: Hungary, for instance, has completely revamped its criminal code. Personal debt is now (with some limitations) inheritable. Totally unjust. And you are required by law to contribute specific amounts of money to your parents' upkeep, should they be unable to fend for themselves. Totally unjust.

This is how you get serfdom.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2017, 11:22:26 pm »
False Dichotomy: you asked about socially unjust laws. The crime rate can fall through an unfair mechanism, and still be unjust.

Example: Jailing all the homeless people would result in homelessness being "solved".

That's totally true.

That's the problem. How to get the one without doing the other (and without all the emotional hand-wringing).

Feed forward control:
Root cause analysis as opposed to treating the symptoms. Certain crimes correlate to disenfranchised environments, and things like access to quality education, basic standards of living  etc reduce them.

Some crimes don't show any reduction regardless of enforcement policy: Heroin and drug use has never been as rampant, in every class and level of society: people want drugs, the only way to tackle that is reduce demand which means social change not legal.

Feed back control:
Encourage schemes that reduce recidivism. The American model is one of the worst in the world for recidivism, reduction of that is not a goal of for profit prison. In comparison the Norway model has a tenth of that. The core differences (apart from investment) are one acts as punitive, the other encourages responsibility of the individual and building them a trade to break an obvious repeating pattern.

I agree with all this except the business of Norway. Norway's having problems with cultural issues now and certain kinds of crimes because of the cultures which have been imported.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiVVvJIM5UI

Oh, great.  You're alt-right.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2017, 11:37:11 pm »
jesus they're everywhere.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Faust

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Re: Post your examples of socially unjust laws which exist where you live
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2017, 11:48:45 pm »
He is just a racist. I point a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world, with the best figures on recidivism, and he links to say that all the foreigners are infesting the country to commit rapes.

Literally a single crime made them slide from being in the top ten safest countries in the world, and that was committed by a man who killed 77 people because of Immigrants were ruining the country.