Author Topic: Sympathy and Nazis  (Read 6096 times)

The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2017, 01:25:33 pm »


Sounds like a guy who's not "full of shit" to me.
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Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2017, 01:41:39 pm »
Why are you so hung up on that one line and why are you ignoring the context that it is written in?
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The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2017, 02:22:16 pm »
Why are you so hung up on that one line and why are you ignoring the context that it is written in?

I'm getting over it. I'm not quite there yet. I wasn't ignoring all of the other context, I projected a bunch of stuff that wasn't there upon an author I knew nothing about.


I SHOULD have just bitten all of it back, but I got from that line the distinct impression that the author was the one full of shit. But I'm getting over it, slowly.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2017, 03:09:54 pm »


Sounds like a guy who's not "full of shit" to me.

The point I was making by posting that is that even MLK, the man you are so twisted in a knot over seeing criticized (the same criticism, by the way, that many many Black civil-rights activists have also levied toward him) recognized that violent protest was the inevitable result of having peaceful protest ignored.

And chew on this for a second: why is MLK lionized, while Malcolm X is demonized? There is one big reason. One really, really big one.

MLK is more palatable to white people than Malcolm X. He's the soft-serve version of the 20th-century civil rights activist. Not that he was not a great man, a great leader, and a great orator -- just that the story of the civil rights movement (the one that earned me the legal right to exist, mind you, as more than the forbidden effluvia of sinful abomination) is much broader than the one white schoolchildren are spoonfed. The school system pushes the narrative that this one nice kind peaceful Black man changed everything for his formerly violent stupid people.

That is NOT the real story. Not the whole story, and a lie by omission is still a lie.

So, sorry you're fucking trapped in your own culturally-instilled sheltered (and at this point, wilfull) ignorance. Read a book or something.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2017, 03:26:41 pm »
That is the same reason, by the way, that so many white people think the original Black Panthers were a hate group analogous to the KKK.


“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2017, 03:34:12 pm »
Saying MLK is full of shit, especially setting it in its own paragraph like Ellis did, and then slightly increasing the font like I did, is a deliberate memebomb. People in the US love MLK by default. White supremacists even cherrypick his words to support their actions or condemn modern day civil rights activists. He is as close to a saint as the US has at an official level.

It causes significant cognitive dissonance to see anyone criticize him, especially bluntly, and most especially someone who is advocating for the rights of minorities. Your gut reaction is normal and appropriate. What happens after that is up to you. When I'm a biped, memebombs make me frown and grump still, but they also make me examine the underlying cause of the dissonance. They put me in a position where I can alter my worldview if I need to. When I'm a screeching baboon, well, I just get mad and make an ass of myself.

MLK was not a saint. Every word that came out of his mouth was not Wisdom From On High. He probably had an affair, his farts smelled bad, he probably picked his nose. He changed his views on some things over the course of his life, and he was critical of Nice White People in ways that would make their skin crawl. He was a complex human being, and bore little resemblance to the white marble saint of himself that's worshiped today.

Ellis is firing shots at St. MLK, and it's a good thing. You should never accept a pantheon blindly.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2017, 03:42:42 pm »
Saying MLK is full of shit, especially setting it in its own paragraph like Ellis did, and then slightly increasing the font like I did, is a deliberate memebomb. People in the US love MLK by default. White supremacists even cherrypick his words to support their actions or condemn modern day civil rights activists. He is as close to a saint as the US has at an official level.

It causes significant cognitive dissonance to see anyone criticize him, especially bluntly, and most especially someone who is advocating for the rights of minorities. Your gut reaction is normal and appropriate. What happens after that is up to you. When I'm a biped, memebombs make me frown and grump still, but they also make me examine the underlying cause of the dissonance. They put me in a position where I can alter my worldview if I need to. When I'm a screeching baboon, well, I just get mad and make an ass of myself.

MLK was not a saint. Every word that came out of his mouth was not Wisdom From On High. He probably had an affair, his farts smelled bad, he probably picked his nose. He changed his views on some things over the course of his life, and he was critical of Nice White People in ways that would make their skin crawl. He was a complex human being, and bore little resemblance to the white marble saint of himself that's worshiped today.

Ellis is firing shots at St. MLK, and it's a good thing. You should never accept a pantheon blindly.

This.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2017, 04:09:58 pm »
That is the same reason, by the way, that so many white people think the original Black Panthers were a hate group analogous to the KKK.

You're right that I need to learn a lot more, of course. I'm well aware of the exclusion of Malcom X but no expert. I NEVER considered the Black Panthers to be a "KKK analgous hate group." I'm not a big fan of the Nation of Islam either, but I consider both to be rightful resistance groups. I DO have a lot more to learn.

You seem to think that I'm against violent protest. I'm not. Not even a little bit. I'm against knee-jerk reactionism and think that the thing needs to be done with a better doctrine than the OP document implies. There has to be hope behind the rage. Perhaps, if you have not, please read Mr. Ellis' stuff and please tell me what you think on it. I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.

I'm not willfully ignorant. I'm working on remedying it. Give me time and you'll see it, but don't think that I'm some fluffy piece of wonderbread either. I'm not.

Saying MLK is full of shit, especially setting it in its own paragraph like Ellis did, and then slightly increasing the font like I did, is a deliberate memebomb. People in the US love MLK by default. White supremacists even cherrypick his words to support their actions or condemn modern day civil rights activists. He is as close to a saint as the US has at an official level.

It causes significant cognitive dissonance to see anyone criticize him, especially bluntly, and most especially someone who is advocating for the rights of minorities. Your gut reaction is normal and appropriate. What happens after that is up to you. When I'm a biped, memebombs make me frown and grump still, but they also make me examine the underlying cause of the dissonance. They put me in a position where I can alter my worldview if I need to. When I'm a screeching baboon, well, I just get mad and make an ass of myself.

MLK was not a saint. Every word that came out of his mouth was not Wisdom From On High. He probably had an affair, his farts smelled bad, he probably picked his nose. He changed his views on some things over the course of his life, and he was critical of Nice White People in ways that would make their skin crawl. He was a complex human being, and bore little resemblance to the white marble saint of himself that's worshiped today.

Ellis is firing shots at St. MLK, and it's a good thing. You should never accept a pantheon blindly.

This.

Sure. I get that, but don't think that's the way to do it because it's broadly dismissive to just say he was full of shit. I don't worship at some paper idol, as is common admittedly. I don't think this "memebomb" is well built or well tatgeted.

That said... I'm going to shut up on the matter until I can do better. That's going to take a whole lot of study time.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2017, 05:00:15 pm »
I didn't get the impression that MLK was being broadly dismissed at all. He is invoked because he is a sacred cow of Polite America, and the piece surgically targets his assertion that there is some moral arc of the universe bending toward justice -- a flowery, inspirational notion that unfortunately has no basis in reality -- for its criticism. And it is wholly appropriate, especially now, when we have this weird debate over whether it's okay to punch Nazis, as if they are the victims here. Ten years ago, few people were out looking to punch Nazis because it was generally accepted that if a Nazi were to venture out from under the rock in Idaho where they swarm like cockroaches, the inevitable result would be.... that they would get punched. Indeed, in Nigel's brief history of Portland, we see that punching Nazis is a time-honored tradition, and for good reason.

Nazis, and all white supremacists, exist for the singular purpose of inflicting violence on others as soon as they have any opportunity. Their violence predates any fists that may come their way, and in fact they are already guilty of a committing kind of violence in this present historical episode just by showing their faces in daylight and intimidating their targets by their suddenly ubiquitous presence on social media, television, and rallies. The notion that we must wait for them to fire up the gas chambers and load people onto trains is itself violent, in that it assumes some number of victims must be expended before we can justify saving others. The fact that we are even debating this is ludicrous.
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Salty

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2017, 05:09:57 pm »
Sure I get that.
    /
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I don't get that.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2017, 05:13:41 pm »
I didn't get the impression that MLK was being broadly dismissed at all. He is invoked because he is a sacred cow of Polite America, and the piece surgically targets his assertion that there is some moral arc of the universe bending toward justice -- a flowery, inspirational notion that unfortunately has no basis in reality -- for its criticism. And it is wholly appropriate, especially now, when we have this weird debate over whether it's okay to punch Nazis, as if they are the victims here. Ten years ago, few people were out looking to punch Nazis because it was generally accepted that if a Nazi were to venture out from under the rock in Idaho where they swarm like cockroaches, the inevitable result would be.... that they would get punched. Indeed, in Nigel's brief history of Portland, we see that punching Nazis is a time-honored tradition, and for good reason.

Nazis, and all white supremacists, exist for the singular purpose of inflicting violence on others as soon as they have any opportunity. Their violence predates any fists that may come their way, and in fact they are already guilty of a committing kind of violence in this present historical episode just by showing their faces in daylight and intimidating their targets by their suddenly ubiquitous presence on social media, television, and rallies. The notion that we must wait for them to fire up the gas chambers and load people onto trains is itself violent, in that it assumes some number of victims must be expended before we can justify saving others. The fact that we are even debating this is ludicrous.

Also, this.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2017, 05:23:12 pm »
I'm against knee-jerk reactionism

HOLY SHIT you think that punching Nazis is "knee-jerk reactionism"???? 

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT NAZIS ARE?

Quote
and think that the thing needs to be done with a better doctrine than the OP document implies.

Uhhhhhhhh so you aren't opposed to punching Nazis, you just think that there needs to be a better ideology  than "fuck off, you Nazis"? Are you for fucking real here, what even

Quote
There has to be hope behind the rage.

Going WAAYYYYYYY out on a limb here, but I suspect that maybe, JUST MAYBE, the hope is that we will not be overrun by Nazis and their genocidal agenda.

Quote
Perhaps, if you have not, please read Mr. Ellis' stuff and please tell me what you think on it. I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.


Sure, I definitely have time to do a bunch of superfluous reading and analysis for you so that I can spoonfeed you an informed opinion.

Quote
I'm not willfully ignorant. I'm working on remedying it. Give me time and you'll see it, but don't think that I'm some fluffy piece of wonderbread either. I'm not.

Prove it. It's been over 96 hours, which in my world is plenty of time to get middling-deep in articles.

Quote
Sure. I get that, but don't think that's the way to do it because it's broadly dismissive to just say he was full of shit. I don't worship at some paper idol, as is common admittedly. I don't think this "memebomb" is well built or well tatgeted.

You keep repeating that you don't think it's a good point, or an effective one. I do. Gogira does. Salty does. Vex does. Xaz does. Coyote does. LMNO does. I wonder if it's possible that we are all seeing aspects to this that you don't see, or if it's simply that you are the only thinking person in a world of sheep?
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Salty

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2017, 05:26:39 pm »
Quote
I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.

Maybe you want to re-read that sentence a few times. Maybe print it out and put it above your workstation.

Still having trouble? I will break it down then.

:stfu2:
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2017, 05:28:29 pm »
I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.

I just have to return to this mind-boggling shitshow of a post for one moment, to ask what kinds of credentials a person needs in order to earn the right to be critical.

What are your credentials?

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Salty

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 05:29:55 pm »
Remember, kids, rights to criticized are earned.
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