Author Topic: Sympathy and Nazis  (Read 6537 times)

00.dusk

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2017, 03:24:22 pm »
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.

The recent history of systemic racism in the USA is so utterly buried under trivial bullshit and outright lies that if you aren't explicitly educated in it, you either have at least one very, very good friend who is directly affected by it, or you very, very likely know not a single thing about it.

I did not know anything about it until just 2 years ago. Keep in mind that I have been to jail and been homeless, that my entire life has been spent in what most people would consider "the projects". Also keep in mind that this was not willful ignorance or "I don't care enough to learn" -- I genuinely had been told all my life that it wasn't real anymore, that the 50s-60s Civil Rights Movement "won" and racism was dead outside of a few angry inbred holdouts. I was told this by smart, well-educated people who should have (maybe even did) know better. Even by people directly affected by it. Even by people in the intersection between those two groups.

You should be more surprised when a white person knows about it at all, let alone when they know /and/ don't dismiss it in favor of blatant racism. You absolutely need to have real curiosity in the subject or personal awareness to not be completely ignorant of it, given the absurd amount of dirt shoveled on top of it to pretend it isn't real.

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2017, 04:03:08 pm »
Fair point.

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2017, 04:24:51 pm »
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.

Yep, and this is why so many white people are under the impression that we live in a post-racism, post-racial society, despite the very intense systemic racism that is underlying every single fucking social institution. Now that I am a grad student, I am keenly aware of why other than Asians there are almost no graduate students of color. The academy, at the graduate school level, is structured in a way that is intensely imperial and hierarchical, and demands a degree of bootlicking that is completely at odds with Black or Native American culture. I am insulted to my core on a daily basis just by participating in it, and I am aware that the end goal is for me to internalize it and become one of the professional academics, but I don't want to. I can't bear the idea of becoming one of the tools of epistemicide.
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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2017, 12:25:15 am »
It's never wrong to punch Nazis.

You should come over to good old Germany. We got so many Nazis, and Nazis not knowing they actually are Nazis... you could do some serious punching.
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Chucklemaster

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2017, 03:44:02 am »
I'm a pacifist.
That term is loaded with far too much shit, so let me unpack what that means to me. Here, I've re-packaged it into a set of easily digestible bullet points:
I don't like violence.
I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using violence in self-defense or in defense of someone in danger, ESPECIALLY not if the person you hurt is a nazi.
I do not believe in an inherently moral universe.
I do believe that part of why I can tell a nazi to go fuck theirself instead of punching them and get away with it is because of the privilege this unjust society gives me, and understand that that is not necessarily an ability afforded to everyone.
If you punch a nazi, I'm not going to tell you you're a bad person.
When I see nazism being advocated for, I most certainly tell the nazi in question to fuck off. I will continue to do so until the time that they fuck off.
I will fuck with, drown out, and insult nazis all day long.
I am not advocating for everything to be done my way. Like I said, it can't always be done my way.
I endorse all non-violent driving away of nazis, and, like I said, am not going to bitch and moan if some nazis get punched in the process of getting them the fuck out.

Also, I really like that pamphlet you made, Q. G. Pennyworth!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 03:47:15 am by Chucklemaster »
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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2017, 10:18:56 am »
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.

Yep, and this is why so many white people are under the impression that we live in a post-racism, post-racial society, despite the very intense systemic racism that is underlying every single fucking social institution. Now that I am a grad student, I am keenly aware of why other than Asians there are almost no graduate students of color. The academy, at the graduate school level, is structured in a way that is intensely imperial and hierarchical, and demands a degree of bootlicking that is completely at odds with Black or Native American culture. I am insulted to my core on a daily basis just by participating in it, and I am aware that the end goal is for me to internalize it and become one of the professional academics, but I don't want to. I can't bear the idea of becoming one of the tools of epistemicide.

do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with white culture?
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00.dusk

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2017, 10:34:57 am »
do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with white culture?

"White culture." Every time I see this used unironically in a way that isn't critical of the very idea, the person responsible is a shitheel.

rong

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2017, 10:47:25 am »
perhaps i should have said -

do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with cultures other than Black or Native American?
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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2017, 01:12:41 pm »
perhaps i should have said -

do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with cultures other than Black or Native American?

Are you new?

I don't mean to this forum. I mean, are you new to earth?

rong

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2017, 01:39:16 pm »
pretty clear we've all stopped thinking here. 

moving on...

bye
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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2017, 09:58:50 pm »
I'm a pacifist.
That term is loaded with far too much shit, so let me unpack what that means to me. Here, I've re-packaged it into a set of easily digestible bullet points:
I don't like violence.
I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using violence in self-defense or in defense of someone in danger, ESPECIALLY not if the person you hurt is a nazi.
I do not believe in an inherently moral universe.
I do believe that part of why I can tell a nazi to go fuck theirself instead of punching them and get away with it is because of the privilege this unjust society gives me, and understand that that is not necessarily an ability afforded to everyone.
If you punch a nazi, I'm not going to tell you you're a bad person.
When I see nazism being advocated for, I most certainly tell the nazi in question to fuck off. I will continue to do so until the time that they fuck off.
I will fuck with, drown out, and insult nazis all day long.
I am not advocating for everything to be done my way. Like I said, it can't always be done my way.
I endorse all non-violent driving away of nazis, and, like I said, am not going to bitch and moan if some nazis get punched in the process of getting them the fuck out.

Also, I really like that pamphlet you made, Q. G. Pennyworth!

Thanks! This one definitely got under people's skin, but Joshua Ellis deserves all the credit for that.

He's actually in facebook jail again, as an excellent demonstration of how FB's policies protect free speech when it's hateful towards non-white people, but comes down hard on anything that makes straight white men uncomfortable.

I think there's a lot to be said about the role that straight white men can play in rehabilitating and reintegrating the worst of the alt-right and other shitbags. The people being hurt by this stuff are not always in a position to defend themselves at all, and rarely are going to be in a place where they have the spoons to spend de-escalating and educating the people who are actively hurting them right now. I worry that a lot of men mistake this job as being "calm everyone the fuck down" rather than "address and remedy current injustices, and restructure society to diminish future injustice, while converting our current enemies into allies in reconstruction." It's fucking hard work.
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Chucklemaster

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2017, 06:43:17 am »
I think there's a lot to be said about the role that straight white men can play in rehabilitating and reintegrating the worst of the alt-right and other shitbags. The people being hurt by this stuff are not always in a position to defend themselves at all, and rarely are going to be in a place where they have the spoons to spend de-escalating and educating the people who are actively hurting them right now. I worry that a lot of men mistake this job as being "calm everyone the fuck down" rather than "address and remedy current injustices, and restructure society to diminish future injustice, while converting our current enemies into allies in reconstruction." It's fucking hard work.
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also, I'm not straight, but I've certainly chosen the role you're talking about by taking the path of pacifism.

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2017, 01:23:38 pm »
For my part I love violence. I'm not as into it nowadays as I was in my younger years but (and here's the part that die hard pacifists will never get) it's fucking awesomely good fun. In my time I have broken bones, rearranged faces and otherwise hospitalised more than my fair share or deserving (and undeserving) targets.

I feel it's important I point this out because it provides a bit of context to my argument that punching nazis is counterproductive. I'm not one of those Ghandi-assholes who thinks all life is sacred and is totally opposed to violence. Violence is fucking great. It's exhilarating and competitive and kerbstomping some prick who looked at your pint the wrong way is just an intensely satisfying feeling that I'd never take away from anyone.

However violence, in the context of punching nazis, I feel is totally counterproductive. Reason being, you're dealing with two extremes - on the one hand you have knuckle dragging nazi right wingers and on the other you have knuckle dragging right-disguised-as-left antifa assholes. Both these sides are minority but, in the middle you got a whole bunch of people who probably hadn't given it much thought. They are being asked to pick a side.

Watching the clip of what's his face being interviewed in the street when the idiot ran up and hooked him might look great to anyone who has already decided where they stand on this issue but for anyone else, lacking context, I'd expect their sympathies might lie with the victim of the assault. Given that there's no grand adjudicator of right and wrong it's public opinion which decides which side we're on.

Punching Nazis is adding fuel to the fire. Great, if what you want is world war three. But, if you want to end the rise of nazism in the US, I'm not sure that going out your way to alienate yourselves and pushing public support to the nazis is the best way forward.

Think about how the average viewer might have reacted if they'd had a chance to actually hear the kind of bullshit the asshole was spouting, as opposed to witnessing a violent assault on an innocent victim? Yeah, sure you know the kind of guy he is but the public don't and, thanks to the weakest right hook I have ever been embarrassed enough to witness, few of those dumb bastards will ever bother to find out.

So here's a bit of advice - you want to punch a Nazi, no worries. Hell, you want to take a bunch of nazis into a basement somewhere and carve them up with chainsaws, it's all shits and giggles, knock yourself out. But ffs, keep it off camera. You're not winning any friends squeeing like a bunch of little fanboy bitches on facebook and, like it or not, you're gonna need friends to win this thing. Without friends, I'd bet on a legion of sulphed up nazi skinheads pwning a gang of skinny college burnouts any day of the week.
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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2017, 01:51:27 am »
For my part I love violence.

Same.

The only way to reach Nazis is to hit them until the Nazi parts fall off.

But yes, KYFMS, so you can do it again next week.
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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2017, 04:12:17 pm »
I'm a pacifist.
That term is loaded with far too much shit, so let me unpack what that means to me. Here, I've re-packaged it into a set of easily digestible bullet points:
I don't like violence.
I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using violence in self-defense or in defense of someone in danger, ESPECIALLY not if the person you hurt is a nazi.
I do not believe in an inherently moral universe.
I do believe that part of why I can tell a nazi to go fuck theirself instead of punching them and get away with it is because of the privilege this unjust society gives me, and understand that that is not necessarily an ability afforded to everyone.
If you punch a nazi, I'm not going to tell you you're a bad person.
When I see nazism being advocated for, I most certainly tell the nazi in question to fuck off. I will continue to do so until the time that they fuck off.
I will fuck with, drown out, and insult nazis all day long.
I am not advocating for everything to be done my way. Like I said, it can't always be done my way.
I endorse all non-violent driving away of nazis, and, like I said, am not going to bitch and moan if some nazis get punched in the process of getting them the fuck out.

Also, I really like that pamphlet you made, Q. G. Pennyworth!

Thanks! This one definitely got under people's skin, but Joshua Ellis deserves all the credit for that.

He's actually in facebook jail again, as an excellent demonstration of how FB's policies protect free speech when it's hateful towards non-white people, but comes down hard on anything that makes straight white men uncomfortable.

What's really weird about his jailing is he was thrown in this time around for reposting something from a former member of this forum.  I know because I (and a few others here) are friends with her, and the picture was posted to her feed well before his.

She's not been banned fron FB at all, despite it even showing on his post that he shared it from her post.

You'd think if the material was really that objectionable, Facebook would follow it up and ban others.  But consistency has never been FB's strong point.  Trans people get banned for signing up accounts with their new names, whereas I use a blatantly fake name for years and no-one blinks.  Support groups get banned for no reason, and white supremacist groups that are literally the political arm of proscribed organisations/terrorist groups are allowed to operate.