Author Topic: Sympathy and Nazis  (Read 7009 times)

Q. G. Pennyworth

  • Slimy Thing Who
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 82807
  • QUEEN BITCH OF FLYERS
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2017, 05:27:13 pm »
Have you read some of the articles about facebook's actual policy that leaked? It's crazy. Basically it's like a well-meaning 16 year old redditor wrote the manual and it's being implemented by high-turnover interns.
Overheating Pheremone Pustule of Last Saturday's Jiggle Fun| _xgeWireToEvent: Unknown extension 131, this should never happen.

Don't fucking judge me, I've got tentacles for a face.

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105116
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2017, 05:45:34 pm »
Just looked now.  Wow, that is pathetic.  This is like something my management would come up with, it's that poor.

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 72196
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2017, 06:04:53 pm »
Consistency in any system is hard to achieve when there are so many disparate talking monkeys in charge of key decision making elements.

off to check out guidelines...
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Freeky

  • Can't breathe anymore.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 187814
  • wat
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2017, 10:14:41 pm »
Here's a relevant thing and I don't know what to think about it:

"Okay. For my part, I am generally of the opinion that direct, physical violence can be an unfortunately necessary response to extremists, Nazis or otherwise, but only as a way of treating symptoms. If they feel confident enough to attack people in the streets, you knock that shit back when it happens. But, bluntly, I don't think the US is there yet. Widespread street violence a la 1980's Portland is not a thing. Charlottesville happened, and it was horrible, but it was, bluntly,a small incident and an aberration besides. I think that as little as violence does to combat, to the point of arguably escalating the long-term consequences, pushing for it to become a norm now is trying to get rid of molehills by dropping grenades on them.
Just... try to remember that the people who are able and willing to punch Nazis are not, in the main, the people who are most likely to pay the price for punching Nazis."

Quoting, and it feels like bullshit, and I'm exceptionally angry to be told not to punch a nazi because it'll be nazis' usual targets who pay, but... does this person have a point?
If someone does the ďFine, youíre right, Iím clearly a terrible person, Iím Satan, Iím the worst person alive, I should just dieĒ thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Don Coyote

  • Token Welshman
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 136308
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #109 on: August 20, 2017, 04:32:48 am »
Here's a relevant thing and I don't know what to think about it:

"Okay. For my part, I am generally of the opinion that direct, physical violence can be an unfortunately necessary response to extremists, Nazis or otherwise, but only as a way of treating symptoms. If they feel confident enough to attack people in the streets, you knock that shit back when it happens. But, bluntly, I don't think the US is there yet. Widespread street violence a la 1980's Portland is not a thing. Charlottesville happened, and it was horrible, but it was, bluntly,a small incident and an aberration besides. I think that as little as violence does to combat, to the point of arguably escalating the long-term consequences, pushing for it to become a norm now is trying to get rid of molehills by dropping grenades on them.
Just... try to remember that the people who are able and willing to punch Nazis are not, in the main, the people who are most likely to pay the price for punching Nazis."

Quoting, and it feels like bullshit, and I'm exceptionally angry to be told not to punch a nazi because it'll be nazis' usual targets who pay, but... does this person have a point?

IMHO, those folks are going to suffer under Nazis regardless, so even though the violence done to the Nazis can be the direct link, it is inevitable that it would happen but for whatever bloody reason the Nazis want to manufacture.

Freeky

  • Can't breathe anymore.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 187814
  • wat
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #110 on: August 20, 2017, 04:50:21 am »
Makes sense. Thanks.
If someone does the ďFine, youíre right, Iím clearly a terrible person, Iím Satan, Iím the worst person alive, I should just dieĒ thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #111 on: August 20, 2017, 06:26:38 am »
Here's a relevant thing and I don't know what to think about it:

"Okay. For my part, I am generally of the opinion that direct, physical violence can be an unfortunately necessary response to extremists, Nazis or otherwise, but only as a way of treating symptoms. If they feel confident enough to attack people in the streets, you knock that shit back when it happens. But, bluntly, I don't think the US is there yet. Widespread street violence a la 1980's Portland is not a thing. Charlottesville happened, and it was horrible, but it was, bluntly,a small incident and an aberration besides. I think that as little as violence does to combat, to the point of arguably escalating the long-term consequences, pushing for it to become a norm now is trying to get rid of molehills by dropping grenades on them.
Just... try to remember that the people who are able and willing to punch Nazis are not, in the main, the people who are most likely to pay the price for punching Nazis."

Quoting, and it feels like bullshit, and I'm exceptionally angry to be told not to punch a nazi because it'll be nazis' usual targets who pay, but... does this person have a point?

IMHO, those folks are going to suffer under Nazis regardless, so even though the violence done to the Nazis can be the direct link, it is inevitable that it would happen but for whatever bloody reason the Nazis want to manufacture.

More to the point:  The one way to ENSURE that Nazis fuck people up is to allow them to exist long enough to fuck people up.

"If you fuck with Nazis, they'll hurt minorities."  THEY'RE GOING TO DO THAT ANYWAY.  Unless you beat them up so bad that they can't.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Q. G. Pennyworth

  • Slimy Thing Who
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 82807
  • QUEEN BITCH OF FLYERS
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #112 on: August 20, 2017, 05:02:57 pm »
The price of punching Nazis is legal consequences if you get caught, and nobody can pay that but the nazi puncher. Punching nazis may radicalize closet nazis, but,well, fuck the closet nazis too.
Overheating Pheremone Pustule of Last Saturday's Jiggle Fun| _xgeWireToEvent: Unknown extension 131, this should never happen.

Don't fucking judge me, I've got tentacles for a face.

Freeky

  • Can't breathe anymore.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 187814
  • wat
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2017, 07:19:05 pm »
The price of punching Nazis is legal consequences if you get caught, and nobody can pay that but the nazi puncher. Punching nazis may radicalize closet nazis, but,well, fuck the closet nazis too.

I tend to agree already with that, but the whole "They're going to take it outon their targets of which they are already harassing" threw me.
If someone does the ďFine, youíre right, Iím clearly a terrible person, Iím Satan, Iím the worst person alive, I should just dieĒ thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

00.dusk

  • A vicious helminthic infection.
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 2690
  • Worm.
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2017, 12:35:25 am »
The "they will take it out on their targets" works when its a splinter faction with no real political power and a very targeted agenda, e.g. with one or two extreme minority groups as the targets, maximum.

(TERFs would be an excellent example if they weren't currently allied with the extreme right, for instance, and they do still fit the bill in extremely trans-friendly spaces.)

As soon as the group hates a significant portion of the populace (e.g. neo-Nazis hate LGBTQ, Jewish, Roma, MENA, Black, Latinx, etc. people) and/or has any significant political power, /even/ if only indirectly (e.g. even if Trump /really did/ hate David Duke, the KKK would still benefit from his policies) they will already take it out on those people by default.

It's easy to see why this is the case. If they hate most or all minority groups, then they will be bombarded with opportunities for actions that can be explained as "the heat of the moment" or "they started it", giving them a thin but viable justification. If they have political power, they don't need to fear repercussions and can freely act like the shitstains they are.

It's only when they have a highly targeted agenda AND a lack of any political power that they need an actual impetus to begin, because that is the only time they cannot act without revealing their true colors AND will receive the much-deserved violence and/or vitriol that they fear. The argument has merit in limited circumstances, but holds no water here.

Pope Pelvis Flirtini

  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 6475
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2017, 09:18:20 am »
But consistency has never been FB's strong point.  Trans people get banned for signing up accounts with their new names, whereas I use a blatantly fake name for years and no-one blinks.  Support groups get banned for no reason, and white supremacist groups that are literally the political arm of proscribed organisations/terrorist groups are allowed to operate.

Seems to me this argument only holds water if no white supremacist groups are ever banned and nobody using a completely fake name has ever had their account deleted for it. As it stands, the facts are probably:

ē some trans accounts are banned for using new names
ē some accounts with completely fake names are banned
ē some support groups are banned for no reason
ē some white supremacist groups get banned

So, I would agree when you say that Facebook isn't consistent (what Internet forum is?), but I see no reason to believe it's specifically inconsistent towards the skew you imply.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Pope Pelvis Flirtini

  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 6475
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2017, 09:23:13 am »
For my part I love violence. I'm not as into it nowadays as I was in my younger years but (and here's the part that die hard pacifists will never get) it's fucking awesomely good fun. In my time I have broken bones, rearranged faces and otherwise hospitalised more than my fair share or deserving (and undeserving) targets.

I feel it's important I point this out because it provides a bit of context to my argument that punching nazis is counterproductive. I'm not one of those Ghandi-assholes who thinks all life is sacred and is totally opposed to violence. Violence is fucking great. It's exhilarating and competitive and kerbstomping some prick who looked at your pint the wrong way is just an intensely satisfying feeling that I'd never take away from anyone.

However violence, in the context of punching nazis, I feel is totally counterproductive. Reason being, you're dealing with two extremes - on the one hand you have knuckle dragging nazi right wingers and on the other you have knuckle dragging right-disguised-as-left antifa assholes. Both these sides are minority but, in the middle you got a whole bunch of people who probably hadn't given it much thought. They are being asked to pick a side.

Watching the clip of what's his face being interviewed in the street when the idiot ran up and hooked him might look great to anyone who has already decided where they stand on this issue but for anyone else, lacking context, I'd expect their sympathies might lie with the victim of the assault. Given that there's no grand adjudicator of right and wrong it's public opinion which decides which side we're on.

Punching Nazis is adding fuel to the fire. Great, if what you want is world war three. But, if you want to end the rise of nazism in the US, I'm not sure that going out your way to alienate yourselves and pushing public support to the nazis is the best way forward.

Think about how the average viewer might have reacted if they'd had a chance to actually hear the kind of bullshit the asshole was spouting, as opposed to witnessing a violent assault on an innocent victim? Yeah, sure you know the kind of guy he is but the public don't and, thanks to the weakest right hook I have ever been embarrassed enough to witness, few of those dumb bastards will ever bother to find out.

So here's a bit of advice - you want to punch a Nazi, no worries. Hell, you want to take a bunch of nazis into a basement somewhere and carve them up with chainsaws, it's all shits and giggles, knock yourself out. But ffs, keep it off camera. You're not winning any friends squeeing like a bunch of little fanboy bitches on facebook and, like it or not, you're gonna need friends to win this thing. Without friends, I'd bet on a legion of sulphed up nazi skinheads pwning a gang of skinny college burnouts any day of the week.

This is a post I didn't expect. I think I actually assumed this particular attitude either couldn't or didn't exist, and feel pretty silly for not considering that it might.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Pope Pelvis Flirtini

  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 6475
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2017, 09:48:06 am »
...despite the very intense systemic racism that is underlying every single fucking social institution. Now that I am a grad student, I am keenly aware of why other than Asians there are almost no graduate students of color. The academy, at the graduate school level, is structured in a way that is intensely imperial and hierarchical, and demands a degree of bootlicking that is completely at odds with Black or Native American culture.

Because those cultures presumably independently developed anti-authoritarian attitudes, institutions of authority are inherently racist? I call nonsense.

I'm not denying that the phenomenon of institutional racism exists, but this isn't how it works. The racism here would be cases where schools that by all accounts should have a higher percentage of non-white graduates have no interest in or actively work against determining why they don't. Really, though, I think that's supposed to be the job of the state. We all know that the only reason universities exist is to make money for football stadiums. (And guess what ethnicity those football teams need...)

Unfortunately, governments tend to think like accountants and seem to prefer to force numbers rather than hiring social scientists to get to the root of the problem. Obviously, we need a Science Party - or, at the very least, a Trial and Error Party.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 10:03:45 am by Pope Pelvis Flirtini »
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2017, 09:21:12 pm »
Seeing a pattern, here.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Pope Pelvis Flirtini

  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 6475
    • View Profile
Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #119 on: August 28, 2017, 12:54:35 am »
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche