Author Topic: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff  (Read 9332 times)

Doktor Howl

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2018, 04:46:28 pm »
It seems to me that you are a cautious, critical thinker, Cram, and on top of that I feel that you have a pretty good safety net when it comes to the community here. That said, I would encourage you to continue your Gurdjieff studies and pay the dues. The caveat being, of course, that I hope you'll elect to hit the eject button as soon as said studies stop seeming beneficial and start seeming rote, obligated, and/or suffocating.

Or they start promising you faster progress if you cough up some loot.
I was a teen-aged shit-poster; as you can see, the condition became chronic.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2018, 05:51:59 pm »
I'd like to clarify that.  If they are asking for donations, or club dues, that's fine.  That's pretty much normal in all respectable cults, such as the Methodists.

It's when they say they can vacuum your chakras or whatnot faster or better if you pony up various levels of cash: Scientology, EST, teevee preachers, and the Church of the Subgenius (only that's different).

I was a teen-aged shit-poster; as you can see, the condition became chronic.

Cramulus

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #122 on: July 03, 2018, 06:10:55 pm »
I think it'll just be limited to Dues, and they are flexible about how much you pay--which is generally not a characteristic of predatory cults.

One of the things I'm sensitive to is that in the Work, there's the idea of "conscious labor and intentional suffering" -- as a means of provoking presence and consciousness. That the self isn't usually found during comfort or complacency, it's easier to find it by experiencing a struggle consciously, by intentionally seeking out stuff you would normally avoid.

And so sometimes there are "work days" where people are literally just doing labor - cleaning, cooking, sorting, inventory, etc. And that's seen as a meditative practice.

But I know this - Gurdjieff got an awful lot of free labor out of his followers. I don't know where exactly the line is between asceticism and extortion. And maybe I won't know it until I get there.

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #123 on: July 03, 2018, 06:16:04 pm »
I think it'll just be limited to Dues, and they are flexible about how much you pay--which is generally not a characteristic of predatory cults.

One of the things I'm sensitive to is that in the Work, there's the idea of "conscious labor and intentional suffering" -- as a means of provoking presence and consciousness. That the self isn't usually found during comfort or complacency, it's easier to find it by experiencing a struggle consciously, by intentionally seeking out stuff you would normally avoid.


So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

I mean, it's no big secret that all great cultural advances occur when people are being smashed down, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to climb in the arbor press on your own.

Quote
And so sometimes there are "work days" where people are literally just doing labor - cleaning, cooking, sorting, inventory, etc. And that's seen as a meditative practice.

But I know this - Gurdjieff got an awful lot of free labor out of his followers. I don't know where exactly the line is between asceticism and extortion. And maybe I won't know it until I get there.

The line is "day 1" unless the leader is himself doing the exact same labor.
I was a teen-aged shit-poster; as you can see, the condition became chronic.

Cramulus

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #124 on: July 03, 2018, 06:45:43 pm »
So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

it depends on attitude


If you have arachnophobia, most contact with spiders will cause you to panic.

If you are treating your own arachnophobia, you have to intentionally expose yourself to them.

Part of the Gurdjieff work (and part of the Discordian Jailbreak) is approaching the spider on purpose. If you are aware of how your mind is going to react, if you can observe the automatic as it's happening, you have created something that is outside of that kneejerk automatic response. That something can moderate your automatic responses - and it can be trained like a muscle. It's kind of like willpower, but also includes self-awareness.

The attitude is key. If someone doesn't want to overcome their spider phobia, then exposure to spiders is only going to cause panic. They have to want to overcome that reaction for the exposure to be therapeutic. They have to approach the spider with a certain mindset and goal.


If we accept that the self is a collective of competing impulses, competing selves,
and one of the reasons I can't change my life is that I get obssessed with "what I find pleasurable" and repelled by "what I don't find pleasurable"

-- then the course of my life is really dicated by the law of accident.

But if I can make a conscious decision, if I can escape from the two headed trap of WANT and DO NOT WANT, then I have an opportunity to arrive somewhere else.


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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2018, 06:52:06 pm »
So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

it depends on attitude


If you have arachnophobia, most contact with spiders will cause you to panic.

If you are treating your own arachnophobia, you have to intentionally expose yourself to them.

Part of the Gurdjieff work (and part of the Discordian Jailbreak) is approaching the spider on purpose. If you are aware of how your mind is going to react, if you can observe the automatic as it's happening, you have created something that is outside of that kneejerk automatic response. That something can moderate your automatic responses - and it can be trained like a muscle. It's kind of like willpower, but also includes self-awareness.

The attitude is key. If someone doesn't want to overcome their spider phobia, then exposure to spiders is only going to cause panic. They have to want to overcome that reaction for the exposure to be therapeutic. They have to approach the spider with a certain mindset and goal.


If we accept that the self is a collective of competing impulses, competing selves,
and one of the reasons I can't change my life is that I get obssessed with "what I find pleasurable" and repelled by "what I don't find pleasurable"

-- then the course of my life is really dicated by the law of accident.

But if I can make a conscious decision, if I can escape from the two headed trap of WANT and DO NOT WANT, then I have an opportunity to arrive somewhere else.

I can see that.  The first time I got flung out the back of a plane, which I had fought for a chance to do, I was definitely "in the moment", which lasted about 10 years and the only reason my poop didn't run off without me is that my asshole had puckered up into my esophagus.  I recommend it to anyone.

On the other hand, I have an INTENSE dislike of country music made since 2010.  It is gutless and weak, and listening to it would not put me in the moment, it would just fill my head full of murder thoughts.

So maybe it's only fear and not loathing that works for this.


I was a teen-aged shit-poster; as you can see, the condition became chronic.

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #126 on: July 05, 2018, 09:17:43 am »
Hey Cramulus, have you explored Sufism much?

If so, what do you think of it compared to Gurdjieff's work? (as he is known to have been heavily inspired by it). I'm a Sufi Muslim (highly heretical mind you) myself, aside from being part Discordian, so this is an area of constant learning. I definitely like Gurdjieff a lot anyway.
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LuciferX

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #127 on: July 05, 2018, 09:46:45 am »
So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

it depends on attitude


If you have arachnophobia, most contact with spiders will cause you to panic.

If you are treating your own arachnophobia, you have to intentionally expose yourself to them.

Part of the Gurdjieff work (and part of the Discordian Jailbreak) is approaching the spider on purpose. If you are aware of how your mind is going to react, if you can observe the automatic as it's happening, you have created something that is outside of that kneejerk automatic response. That something can moderate your automatic responses - and it can be trained like a muscle. It's kind of like willpower, but also includes self-awareness.

The attitude is key. If someone doesn't want to overcome their spider phobia, then exposure to spiders is only going to cause panic. They have to want to overcome that reaction for the exposure to be therapeutic. They have to approach the spider with a certain mindset and goal.


If we accept that the self is a collective of competing impulses, competing selves,
and one of the reasons I can't change my life is that I get obssessed with "what I find pleasurable" and repelled by "what I don't find pleasurable"

-- then the course of my life is really dicated by the law of accident.

But if I can make a conscious decision, if I can escape from the two headed trap of WANT and DO NOT WANT, then I have an opportunity to arrive somewhere else.

I can see that.  The first time I got flung out the back of a plane, which I had fought for a chance to do, I was definitely "in the moment", which lasted about 10 years and the only reason my poop didn't run off without me is that my asshole had puckered up into my esophagus.  I recommend it to anyone.

On the other hand, I have an INTENSE dislike of country music made since 2010.  It is gutless and weak, and listening to it would not put me in the moment, it would just fill my head full of murder thoughts.

So maybe it's only fear and not loathing that works for this.
I'd prefer if it was not a matter of taste, degustibus etc. About fear or rervous response, something about facing it can sometimes turn the chill of anxiety into a surge of excitement. Somatically, the effects are actually quite similar, though the mental distinction of avoiding vs. embracing the immanent groundlessness of it all can make a big difference? 
Hic Salta?
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Cramulus

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #128 on: July 05, 2018, 02:12:55 pm »
Hey Cramulus, have you explored Sufism much?

If so, what do you think of it compared to Gurdjieff's work? (as he is known to have been heavily inspired by it). I'm a Sufi Muslim (highly heretical mind you) myself, aside from being part Discordian, so this is an area of constant learning. I definitely like Gurdjieff a lot anyway.

I've only dipped my toe in it - listened to a lecture about it in college, and read a handful of little articles and perspectives - yeah, there's a lot of shared ground. I would love a reccommendation for something short length to read about it.

Those dances tho! Spiraling closer and closer to the center... so cool. I understand that there are sufi practices that steer the practitioner into an ecstatic trance. I wonder how much common ground there is with the Gurdjieff Movements. 




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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2018, 09:27:48 am »
Hey Cramulus, have you explored Sufism much?

If so, what do you think of it compared to Gurdjieff's work? (as he is known to have been heavily inspired by it). I'm a Sufi Muslim (highly heretical mind you) myself, aside from being part Discordian, so this is an area of constant learning. I definitely like Gurdjieff a lot anyway.

I've only dipped my toe in it - listened to a lecture about it in college, and read a handful of little articles and perspectives - yeah, there's a lot of shared ground. I would love a reccommendation for something short length to read about it.

Those dances tho! Spiraling closer and closer to the center... so cool. I understand that there are sufi practices that steer the practitioner into an ecstatic trance. I wonder how much common ground there is with the Gurdjieff Movements.

The dancing is only really found in certain Sufi Orders but yes, that in particular was a direct influence on Gurdjieff's Movements.
Sufism is a very broad subject of Islamic mysticism going from pure mystical theology/cosmology/astrology/kabbalah to magic/sorcery (Djinn seems to be the focus in much of it, despite being a largely unexplored area when it comes to translation  :oops: ) to 'shamanistic' practices (hallucinogens). We read the Quran with much more nuanced lens that mainstream Muslim sects, the Quran itself refers to Allah (in many various places) as being an outer force, inner force and even a method of attainment (which evokes Shaivism a little and Hadit in Thelema)

Yeah, seeing your ongoing interest in Gurdjieff (as I also do myself, having already previously attested to) it was a question I couldn't help but ask  :)
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #130 on: July 09, 2018, 05:53:35 pm »

The dancing is only really found in certain Sufi Orders

Then what's the point?  It's what makes Sufiism fantastic.
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LuciferX

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Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
« Reply #131 on: July 10, 2018, 06:21:01 am »

[..]
to magic/sorcery (Djinn seems to be the focus in much of it, despite being a largely unexplored area when it comes to translation  :-[ ) to 'shamanistic' practices (hallucinogens).
[...]

Well this is interesting, in a non-simultaneous yet synchronous sense  :)
Hic Salta?
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