Author Topic: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong  (Read 5178 times)

Junkenstein

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2017, 12:53:41 pm »
Sovereignty over your person

the is the best pro-choice argument i've ever heard. 

kind of like the "stand your ground" laws

Having the right to your own body is just like shooting Trayvon Martin.

You are a fucking genius.  Talking Ben Carson level brains, here.

 :thanks:

Sigh.
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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2017, 05:20:25 pm »
I understand now why I was wrong. There's just a few things that don't sit well with me. And I come to you about this, not to disagree, but to see if more elaboration, or another way of looking at these particular situations will make this an easier pill to swallow.

I didn't mention this in the OP because I assumed it was already expected to be the case of anyone who's pro abortion, but I understand why the OP could lead someone to believe this wasn't the case:

In cases of rape/incest, and life-threatening pregnancy of either the baby or the mother, I don't see any type of abortion as wrong. Whether or not it's late term is irrelevant if the pregnancy endangers either life, or has the potential to cause moderate to serious damage to either.

In other words, I already applied the bodily integrity argument to those cases. The change here, of course, is that you claim, and I agree, that bodily integrity should apply to all cases of abortion regardless of level of harm to either the baby or mother or intention of conception.

That being said, something doesn't feel right about late-term abortion of a healthy baby from a healthy mother in the case of consensual conception. You're right though, it's the woman's body. It really is their choice. I'm not taking that away. But is there some sort of line drawn since the baby is a person who also has a right to bodily autonomy? And in the case of consensual conception, should the mother/father be held responsible for their decision to conceive? I would argue that consensual conception of a baby is the act of "Conferring the right of the use of the body to another person." And once that fetus becomes living, and no damage is expected from the pregnancy, is it morally responsible to retract that right to the use of the body to end the baby's life?

Maybe I'm missing something, or assuming information that was not intended. I just wanted your thoughts on this.
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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2017, 05:24:12 pm »
I'm sorry, man, but this really is hilarious. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: You just don't understand why yet.

I feel kind of like a jerk because you are clearly making an effort to educate yourself and that is highly admirable.





This is still funny tho.

I'm 21, and understand that I have often said, and will often say things that are outrageously stupid for quite awhile longer than Imight expect. I accept that.

But don't be surprised that I find this annoying.

On second thought, I've intentionally walked into threads and turned into an exploding shitfountain before. I'll give you this one.


Here are a few starting points that can help you catch up on the debate, and why bodily integrity and not fetus viability is the core argument in favor of legal medical abortion:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=yjlf
http://www.healthrights.am/practitioner-guide/more/579/
https://www.mmfllaw.com/ones-right-to-bodily-integrity.shtml

Now, consider the argument you are making, which is that the right to bodily integrity alone is insufficient to justify abortion. In order for that argument to be valid, you must assume that pregnancy is a special case in which a woman's bodily integrity is suspended in favor of another organism, which we will assume for the sake of the discussion is a person. Therefore, the woman's right to bodily integrity is suspended in order to confer the right to use her body to another person, placing her in a category of less-than-human, as bodily integrity is legally considered a human right.

Yes. Please read that again, and understand that the argument you are making, at its core, is that the human rights argument is insufficient because women just aren't quite people enough.

Before I jump into this,  I wanna have something clarified:

By bodily integrity, do you mean the ability for the body to live? Or do any changes/damage to the body whatsoever count as "affecting bodily integrity?" I looked up the definition, but my young male brain shit the bed and resorted to pterodactyl sex fantasies and pepe memes.

So you didn't click on ANY of those links, which explain bodily integrity and why it is important?
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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2017, 05:26:25 pm »
Following the links would be a good start.

Also paying attention to what women say about abortion is also a good idea.

REVOLUTIONARY CONCEPT!

Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2017, 05:29:53 pm »
I'm sorry, man, but this really is hilarious. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: You just don't understand why yet.

I feel kind of like a jerk because you are clearly making an effort to educate yourself and that is highly admirable.





This is still funny tho.

I'm 21, and understand that I have often said, and will often say things that are outrageously stupid for quite awhile longer than Imight expect. I accept that.

But don't be surprised that I find this annoying.

On second thought, I've intentionally walked into threads and turned into an exploding shitfountain before. I'll give you this one.


Here are a few starting points that can help you catch up on the debate, and why bodily integrity and not fetus viability is the core argument in favor of legal medical abortion:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=yjlf
http://www.healthrights.am/practitioner-guide/more/579/
https://www.mmfllaw.com/ones-right-to-bodily-integrity.shtml

Now, consider the argument you are making, which is that the right to bodily integrity alone is insufficient to justify abortion. In order for that argument to be valid, you must assume that pregnancy is a special case in which a woman's bodily integrity is suspended in favor of another organism, which we will assume for the sake of the discussion is a person. Therefore, the woman's right to bodily integrity is suspended in order to confer the right to use her body to another person, placing her in a category of less-than-human, as bodily integrity is legally considered a human right.

Yes. Please read that again, and understand that the argument you are making, at its core, is that the human rights argument is insufficient because women just aren't quite people enough.

Before I jump into this,  I wanna have something clarified:

By bodily integrity, do you mean the ability for the body to live? Or do any changes/damage to the body whatsoever count as "affecting bodily integrity?" I looked up the definition, but my young male brain shit the bed and resorted to pterodactyl sex fantasies and pepe memes.

So you didn't click on ANY of those links, which explain bodily integrity and why it is important?

Yes, but we're past that.

Actually, the first link I clicked used the term without defining it, so I looked it up by hand and still didn't fully understand the definition, mostly because my preconceived notion of what I assumed the word meant conflicted with what was included in the definition. I accepted the definition provided after more thought about it.
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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2017, 05:35:32 pm »
Man, you're going to be so embarrassed by this thread in five years. "I'm a 21-year-old boy and all the arguments wimmins been using about abortion rights is bad!"

There is SO MUCH available on the internet to read and comprehend about the debate, and all the questions you are asking.

It is very important to know your background information before building a new thesis. You have to actually understand the arguments and the contexts around those arguments before you can build anything useable. The step that all academics go through before starting to write about a new idea is a "literature review"; reading anywhere from dozens to hundreds of articles and books about the topic of interest. After that baseline knowledge has been established, then and only then are you equipped to move forward with turning speculation into a statement, let alone to argue (defend) that statement.

I think that for you, a good place to start would be learning search skills. I have to leave, but I will try to dig up some resources that will help you approach this methodically.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2017, 06:39:14 pm »
Here are a couple of good starting points. This first link is good starter information for the non-academic looking to improve their research review skills:
https://www.lifewire.com/how-real-online-research-works-2483456

This is much more in-depth and is oriented toward university students. I think that although it might be information overload at first, this is the website you will ultimately find most useful:
https://digitalliteracy.cornell.edu/tutorial/dpl3000.html
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2017, 06:46:43 pm »
Also, read the Wikipedia page on bodily integrity. It's a pretty good place to start forming baseline understanding. If it confuses you, take notes as you go, and go back to those sections to see if they make more sense on a second read-through.

FWIW, when I think I have an original thought, the first thing I do now is search to see if I can find out whether anyone else already had that thought and published something on it. Over 99 percent of the time, the answer is yes, someone has. So, I read what they had to say about it, and check my idea to see if there are any directions I can take it in that would offer something that hasn't been done. This is a superb way to both learn more about your interests, and to refine your ideas into something that is both original and useful.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2017, 08:41:52 pm »
All of this is very helpful. I definitely run into problems in online research wherein I'll be stuck going through mounds and mounds of material that's either irrelevant or only contains pieces here and there that I need on the question I'm asking. And when you're mind is constantly racing from one topic/idea to the next, it's damn-near impossible to acquire all the information I need within a short enough time to stay interested and focused. If I lose focus or interest, I can't even continue thinking about the topic. Nothing I read even registers or makes sense.

I will definitely use these resources to help my researching skills.
Listen carefully. I don't have much time, and I only have 462 characters left. I'm a scientist from Area 52 (Area 51 was used to draw attention from Area 52, where the aliens were ACTUALLY stored) who was working on neural interfacing with networked devices. In an experiment gone wrong, I accidentally uploaded my mind to the internet. In the 2 seconds I had before my mind scrambled itself with the world's network traffic, I was able to store this snippet in this random internet signature. If you're reading this, let the world know tha

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2017, 10:09:44 pm »
I understand about losing interest. I have been reading about antigen retrieval steps in immunohistochemistry for days, and I am not interested in it in the slightest but I have to make my project work if I want to graduate, so... 40+ articles later, I think I have the information I need to move forward.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2017, 10:56:33 pm »
Sovereignty over your person

the is the best pro-choice argument i've ever heard. 

kind of like the "stand your ground" laws

Having the right to your own body is just like shooting Trayvon Martin.

You are a fucking genius.  Talking Ben Carson level brains, here.

 :thanks:

You can use your uterus to store grain.  It's scientific fact.

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2017, 11:42:56 pm »
I can't mine is defective. Grain just pisses out through the holes  :sad:
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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2017, 12:52:47 am »

2) fathers should be allowed to request an abortion - if the mother chooses to have the child anyway, the father should not have to pay child support


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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2017, 04:28:51 am »
I understand about losing interest. I have been reading about antigen retrieval steps in immunohistochemistry for days, and I am not interested in it in the slightest but I have to make my project work if I want to graduate, so... 40+ articles later, I think I have the information I need to move forward.

Yeah, I just looked up what that is. It seems quite important as a form of information gathering regarding health diagnostics and study, but it sounds so incredibly specific and tedious. Fucking yawn fest.

I physically wouldn't be capable of reading 40 articles on something like that. If I'm not stimulated I will fall asleep. That takes some serious dedication. Kudos, seriously.
Listen carefully. I don't have much time, and I only have 462 characters left. I'm a scientist from Area 52 (Area 51 was used to draw attention from Area 52, where the aliens were ACTUALLY stored) who was working on neural interfacing with networked devices. In an experiment gone wrong, I accidentally uploaded my mind to the internet. In the 2 seconds I had before my mind scrambled itself with the world's network traffic, I was able to store this snippet in this random internet signature. If you're reading this, let the world know tha

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2017, 03:56:23 am »
I understand about losing interest. I have been reading about antigen retrieval steps in immunohistochemistry for days, and I am not interested in it in the slightest but I have to make my project work if I want to graduate, so... 40+ articles later, I think I have the information I need to move forward.

Yeah, I just looked up what that is. It seems quite important as a form of information gathering regarding health diagnostics and study, but it sounds so incredibly specific and tedious. Fucking yawn fest.

I physically wouldn't be capable of reading 40 articles on something like that. If I'm not stimulated I will fall asleep. That takes some serious dedication. Kudos, seriously.

Thanks!

Learning to stick it out through really tedious texts has been one fairly important skill so far in this whole science adventure.  :horrormirth:
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.