Author Topic: Look both ways before you cross  (Read 5380 times)

tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2017, 05:14:21 pm »
I like how "the extreme leftists are taking control" is a statement that's taken seriously despite the fact that the UK just voted itself out of the EU in a fit of xenophobic ignorance, their prime minister just made a governing deal with a party that would make the KKK blush, and race- and religion-based violence in Britain has spiked 1000% in the last year. Where is all this "extreme left in control" stuff? And that's just the UK. We hear the same shit in America despite the fact that we just elected an autocratic blowhard who surrounds himself with Nazi wankers, Congress is currently debating whether it should fuck all Americans out of safety nets or just most of us, states all over the place are passing laws encouraging discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, and the police have more or less free reign to murder anyone who is sufficiently black with or without cause. And yet, somehow, "the extreme left" is in control.
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LMNO

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2017, 05:15:37 pm »
Well said.

May I yoink?

Also, Big Words?

Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2017, 07:29:15 pm »
In my estimation, the core principle of conservatives is to maintain status quo.

Also in my estimation, the status quo consists of rigid hierarchical power structures, economic inequality, systemic racism, and class inequity.

Therefore, I believe much of conservative thought is designed for the ruling class (the Haves) to hold on to their power over the rest of society (the Have Nots).

A "balance of left and right" (i.e. a balance of conservative and liberal thought) is to agree that the (ine)qualities of the status quo should be at least partially maintained.

At least, that's what my radical progressive mind daydreams about.

I can understand your pespective.

The problem is the assumption that the victory of the left is the victory of the "have nots" over the "haves."

In fact, in the political sense, the left and right are simply two groups of "haves" fighting over who gets to control the "have nots". When you look at political history, at least from the British perspective, it doesn't really matter who is in power. Either way you have an elite who abuse the position of power to control the rest of society.

When you get an equal balance of power, such as when you have a hung parliment, THAT is when social change can occur, THAT is when the "haves" are too weak to maintain full control and fulfill their agenda.

An example is the recent Tory/Lib Dem coalition that resulted in the legalisation of gay marriage. A Tory or Labour majority would never pass such a law. The weakness of the coalition government allowed an act of real social change to occur.

The threat of a strong Labour government, controlled by the extreme left is just another set of chains upon the British people as one elite replaces the other.

I must reject the concept that any one political ideaology is superior to the other. Yes I support a more right wing viewpoint but I am not foolish enough to want it to be dominant.

I see the current situation of a weak government holding onto a majority by a thread as a welcome opportunity for the REAL changes to be made as the government becomes so desperate to maintain control that they will allow social changes to happen to keep back bench rebels happy.
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LMNO

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2017, 07:35:32 pm »
Ah.  It sounds like you have a problem with people rather than ideas.

Humans are not concepts.

Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2017, 07:36:36 pm »
I like how "the extreme leftists are taking control" is a statement that's taken seriously despite the fact that the UK just voted itself out of the EU in a fit of xenophobic ignorance, their prime minister just made a governing deal with a party that would make the KKK blush, and race- and religion-based violence in Britain has spiked 1000% in the last year. Where is all this "extreme left in control" stuff? And that's just the UK. We hear the same shit in America despite the fact that we just elected an autocratic blowhard who surrounds himself with Nazi wankers, Congress is currently debating whether it should fuck all Americans out of safety nets or just most of us, states all over the place are passing laws encouraging discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, and the police have more or less free reign to murder anyone who is sufficiently black with or without cause. And yet, somehow, "the extreme left" is in control.

You make the assumption that brexit is based on xenophobia. While I voted remain I looked at all the arguments and there where many compelling economic and political reasons for both sides.

The remain campaign of labeling all "leavers" as closet racists also backfired as many in this country resented being accused of racism just for supporting brexit.

Brexit was NOT a left-right issue. Jeremy Corbyn, you may know him as the guy in charge of the LEFT wing labour party, was a supporter of LEAVING the EU.

This is the problem with polarisation, you just make the perfect example. You just assume it's left-right and therefore Brexit is a racist, right wing decision.

The country was split evenly, 48% to 52% with leavers and remainers in BOTH political parties and a public who voted NOT on traditional political lines. Many labour strongholds voted for leave while still voting labour.
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Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2017, 07:38:38 pm »
Ah.  It sounds like you have a problem with people rather than ideas.

Humans are not concepts.

Concepts are just tools, double edged swords.
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LMNO

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2017, 07:42:27 pm »
People do not adhere to their assumptive labels.

Your move.

Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2017, 07:44:58 pm »
People do not adhere to their assumptive labels.

Your move.

Therefore "left" and "right" as good-bad absolutes are false assumptions.
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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2017, 07:48:33 pm »
Nope.

Check again.  The ideas behind left and right are attitudes and assumptions about how society and people should be treated.

The politicians may aim towards the goals of left and right, but are imperfect.

Also, the strategies suggested by the left and right may or may not achieve the goals.

The attitudes and assumptions that define the left and right, however, usually do not.

Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2017, 07:57:40 pm »
Nope.

Check again.  The ideas behind left and right are attitudes and assumptions about how society and people should be treated.

The politicians may aim towards the goals of left and right, but are imperfect.

Also, the strategies suggested by the left and right may or may not achieve the goals.

The attitudes and assumptions that define the left and right, however, usually do not.

I think we have perhaps reached a fundamental difference of opinion.

Now, please correct me if I get the wrong impression, you appear to have a view that "left" and "right" are good-bad concepts.
You assign the left as a "good" thing and the "right" as a bad thing, therefore it can be concluded you believe the left should succeed over the right.

That is what I am understanding from your posts.
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Hoopla

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2017, 08:00:56 pm »
Nope.

Check again.  The ideas behind left and right are attitudes and assumptions about how society and people should be treated.

The politicians may aim towards the goals of left and right, but are imperfect.

Also, the strategies suggested by the left and right may or may not achieve the goals.

The attitudes and assumptions that define the left and right, however, usually do not.

I think we have perhaps reached a fundamental difference of opinion.

Now, please correct me if I get the wrong impression, you appear to have a view that "left" and "right" are good-bad concepts.
You assign the left as a "good" thing and the "right" as a bad thing, therefore it can be concluded you believe the left should succeed over the right.

That is what I am understanding from your posts.

I'm not as familiar with UK politics, but when one side is actively trying to deny basic human rights to large chunks of the population its a little difficult to conceptualize one side not being "bad". Do you disagree that helping people is a good concept?
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2017, 08:03:14 pm »
Nope.

Check again.  The ideas behind left and right are attitudes and assumptions about how society and people should be treated.

The politicians may aim towards the goals of left and right, but are imperfect.

Also, the strategies suggested by the left and right may or may not achieve the goals.

The attitudes and assumptions that define the left and right, however, usually do not.

I think we have perhaps reached a fundamental difference of opinion.

Now, please correct me if I get the wrong impression, you appear to have a view that "left" and "right" are good-bad concepts.
You assign the left as a "good" thing and the "right" as a bad thing, therefore it can be concluded you believe the left should succeed over the right.

That is what I am understanding from your posts.

I'm not as familiar with UK politics, but when one side is actively trying to deny basic human rights to large chunks of the population its a little difficult to conceptualize one side not being "bad". Do you disagree that helping people is a good concept?

Ok, let's clarify this. What do you mean by denying basic human rights? Are you refering to the DUP? Or something else?
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Fallenkezef

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2017, 08:08:45 pm »
I'm going to paint a target on myself here, helping people is a very grey statement.

There is helping people only to harm them. I'm not talking about the trite "better to give them a net than a fish".

I'll take my opposition to the welfare state, the left would say "you don't want to help people you evil capitalist pig!". I'd say, is it really helping someone by making them dependent on the state?

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Hoopla

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2017, 08:09:20 pm »
Nope.

Check again.  The ideas behind left and right are attitudes and assumptions about how society and people should be treated.

The politicians may aim towards the goals of left and right, but are imperfect.

Also, the strategies suggested by the left and right may or may not achieve the goals.

The attitudes and assumptions that define the left and right, however, usually do not.

I think we have perhaps reached a fundamental difference of opinion.

Now, please correct me if I get the wrong impression, you appear to have a view that "left" and "right" are good-bad concepts.
You assign the left as a "good" thing and the "right" as a bad thing, therefore it can be concluded you believe the left should succeed over the right.

That is what I am understanding from your posts.

I'm not as familiar with UK politics, but when one side is actively trying to deny basic human rights to large chunks of the population its a little difficult to conceptualize one side not being "bad". Do you disagree that helping people is a good concept?

Ok, let's clarify this. What do you mean by denying basic human rights? Are you refering to the DUP? Or something else?

Health Care. LGBTQ rights. Right to a woman being able to get an abortion in places other than dark alleys. I could go on, but that's a good start.
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

Hoopla

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Re: Look both ways before you cross
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2017, 08:11:38 pm »
I'm going to paint a target on myself here, helping people is a very grey statement.

There is helping people only to harm them. I'm not talking about the trite "better to give them a net than a fish".

I'll take my opposition to the welfare state, the left would say "you don't want to help people you evil capitalist pig!". I'd say, is it really helping someone by making them dependent on the state?

The state's job is to protect its people. That includes protecting them from poverty.

Are you really concerned with these people being dependent on the state, or do you simply consider them parasites?

Say what you will about Ayn Rand, but at least she was honest about how she viewed people she despised.
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman