Author Topic: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?  (Read 2809 times)

IPunchNazis

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Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« on: August 19, 2017, 03:25:40 am »
When I first signed up, you all clocked me for what I was: a troll. But a few of you actually understood the joke: that my intention was to hold to you a mirror-image caricature of the seemingly addicted-to-violence mentality that pervades this board.

I became quickly bored (as I'm sure you all were with me from the start) and went back to lurking after realizing that those of you who are keen on aggressive action in the face of conflict with an enemy you equate with evil are at no risk of changing your minds, and I have no intention of making the mistake of arguing with you like so many others have come here to do.

Say what you will about not defining Discordia, but I have always imagined the Discordian as an out-of-the-box thinker, someone too clever for physical confrontation. If anything, the Discordian should be the person who tricks others into getting into fistfights, rather than being directly engaged. When I think of Discordia, I think of conflict resolution through trickery and manipulation (and preferably without bloodshed). Don't tell the enemy they can't have what they want; fool them into thinking they want something they can have. To me, a Discordian is a master at social engineering.

So unless these calls to arms and violence are themselves an elaborate and clever cover designed to trick others into thinking that Discordians are bloodthirsty mouth-breathers while real actions are taken covertly, I have to ask in earnestness if anyone else here has a commitment to non-violence in their personal politics.

Over the past few days, in reading up on the Charlottesville incident, I've found my views shifting somewhat. At first, I was appalled that opponents to the alt-right's rally would purposely engage in a way meant to escalate the conflict into violent chaos. I assumed that the Nazis were a clever distraction meant to prevent the progressives from reexamining their own failures in the 2016 election and that everyone was taking the bait.

For instance, this reaction to a (very entertaining but violently passionate) rant by Doug Harmon sums up my initial views quite well:

Quote
Strongly disagree with this very simplistic viewpoint. So quick to shun all discussion, label it a black-and-white moral "no-brainer", and lump anyone who doesn't agree with him in with the most extreme factions of the opposition. Fact of the matter is that there are very real socioeconomic and psychological forces at play driving people to the far right and until we start listening to and working towards solutions to these issues, the tensions will only escalate. Nonviolence is the only way forward if we hope to deescalate the situation and resume any semblance of a reasonable national conversation.

People wanting to "stab Nazis" as Dan seems to advocate here are a big part of the problem.

The small group of people who were in Charlottesville violently anti-protesting have given Trump the ammunition for his "on all sides" rhetoric. Had Antifa not been there, the left would have the clear moral high ground. Instead, they showed up looking to pick fights with Nazis and they got one... except one of the nonviolent protesters was the one to pay the price for it. This whole "it's okay to assault Nazis" thing needs to end. Violence is not okay. It makes us no better than them.

You know how Rosa Parks wasn't the first person to refuse to give up her seat, but she was specifically chosen to be the first civil rights case that everyone could get behind because she had no record, no dirt, no skeletons in the closet? Civil rights leaders of the time knew that this must be the case going into the fray, because the other side is absolutely going to attempt to sling any mud that they can to discredit the movement...

Well, the tactics of Antifa are our skeleton in the closet this week. Because of their use of violence, there is no clear provocateur of the conflict. Police say so themselves... No one forced the kid to run through a crowd with his car... but let's not pretend that the preceding "mutually engaged combat" had nothing to do with it... his attack was a reaction to escalating conflict, likely compounded by mental illness. I'm not saying that makes it right, I'm just saying that had Antifa not been there looking for violence, the right would have no one to point the finger at, as they are known to do.

Antifa ruined the spirit of counter-protest by practicing eye for an eye. In their absence, the car attack may not have happened; if it did still happen then we would have had a nation unified against political violence. Instead, we've become enthralled by the prospect of more of it because "Nazis"... I fear for the coming months.

If we want the Right to distance themselves from their extremist factions, we MUST be willing to do the same on the Left. Anyone throwing punches or using weapons at rallies should be shunned by their respective groups and arrested, even utilizing citizen's arrest by their own in-group if necessary. I don't give a shit if they're punching Nazis or Communists or Progressives or Regressives or Black Lives Matter or White Lives Matter or whatever. It's not up to individual citizens to decide when violence is justified, except in cases of self-defense. That's a matter for our top lawyers and judges and lawmakers who spend their lives studying these topics to decide, and it's a rule that only the state is capable of being objective over and enforcing.

I do NOT want to see mob rule in America. There's a reason ACLU defended the white nationalist's right to protest. There's a reason that you've got black cops out there defending the KKK's right to speak... The reason is that discourse, even hateful discourse, is the bedrock of our democracy. If we're going to go to war with Nazis because they represent a clear and present danger, we need to decide that as a country and act in unison. Easier said than done, I will admit. But the wheels of justice turn slowly for a reason.

However, I found a counterargument that made me begrudgingly entertain the alternative:

Quote
The battle for civil rights was a two-pronged attack. One prong was staunchly nonviolent (MLK, Rosa Parks, etc) and the other prong was more militant and had no such commitment to nonviolence.

Would the nonviolent civil rights crusaders have been nearly as successful without the militant wing of the movement?

There's no definitive way to answer that question, obviously. The best we can do is speculate.

But I think it's highly likely that the mere presence of the militant wing on the national landscape helped the nonviolent civil rights pioneers to an immense degree.

Think about it. Imagine a 1960s where there's no Black Panthers, no Huey P. Newton, no Malcolm X. To whites, MLK would have seemed like a dangerous radical, somebody on the fringe, wanting to smash the status quo.

But that's not how it played out in reality. Because there were other, "scarier" African-Americans out there, many white Americans saw the nonviolent side of the movement as a voice of reason and peace in the middle. This made the nonviolent message of MLK and Rosa Parks that much more palatable to white Americans. Instead of being on the fringe, they seemed like the reasonable centrists.

Bottom line? Well, I sure like the idea of nonviolence, but I'm also not convinced that it can always solve things on its own. Nonviolent appeasement of Hitler sure didn't work.

So I now must admit that I have to consider that the aggressive and confrontational element is a necessary evil, so to speak, and that the problem cannot be resolved (I.E. the alt-right's agenda defeated) without it. Perhaps the far-right has indeed become a very real threat with another civil war on the horizon.

I am still, however, surprised to see so many Discordians hungry to participate in the violence. Are there any of you, like me, who aren't? Who would, if anything, attempt subvert it instead of willfully helping to immanentize it?

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2017, 06:42:31 am »
Violence is a tool, like any other overt behavior.  And like any tool it is useful for some jobs but not for others.

It is the only useful tool for dealing with Nazis.  You can't convince a Nazi of anything, but you can pound on them until all the white supremacy leaks out.  Function over form.  If you're a pacifist, you are deliberately depriving yourself of one of the tools with which primates excel.  You are limiting your options...for what?  So you can feel smug and superior while Jethro and Hans haul your next door neighbor away1?  I am sure your neighbor will appreciate your moral virtues.

You seem to have mistaken us for Moonies.  Eris started a massive war that led to the "bronze dark age" because she wasn't invited to a party. Just IMAGINE what she'd do to a cunt like Richard Spencer just for that shitty haircut.

And there is no rule that says you can't be clever and violent, or both at the same time.  One day you maul a Nazi with a sock full of pennies, the next day you out a Nazi to his boss.  Both are effective. Both are appropriate, which you choose only depends on the circumstances.  If you are tiny or old or just not good at whupping on people, choose the latter.

Lastly, violence against Nazis is good for everyone, including the Nazis.  Because if you don't punch them today, you have to hang them tomorrow.



1  This isn't hyperbole.  The original Nazis started out just like the new ones have.  They even had violent opposition.  It just wasn't violent enough.

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IPunchNazis

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2017, 08:59:40 am »
As stated, I have no desire to waste time or energy attempting to dissuade those of you who condone violence from your desire for it, but wish only to connect with other Discordians who have commitments against it.

That being said...

Violence [...] is the only useful tool for dealing with Nazis.  You can't convince a Nazi of anything, but you can pound on them until all the white supremacy leaks out.

I would like to point out that this is both objectively false and itself a form of prejudice.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-life-after-hate-white-supremacist-met-20170818-story.html

You can find many such stories if only you look.

https://www.google.com/search?q=former+nazi

LuciferX

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2017, 09:15:45 am »
Real prejudice is not identical with the prejudice of itself.
As stated, I have no desire to waste time or energy attempting to dissuade those of you who condone violence from your desire for it, but wish only to connect with other Discordians who have commitments against it.

That being said...

Violence [...] is the only useful tool for dealing with Nazis.  You can't convince a Nazi of anything, but you can pound on them until all the white supremacy leaks out.

I would like to point out that this is both objectively false and itself a form of prejudice.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-life-after-hate-white-supremacist-met-20170818-story.html

You can find many such stories if only you look.

https://www.google.com/search?q=former+nazi
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tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2017, 05:07:26 pm »
I can't make grand statements about what motivates people, other than myself. I am not particularly fond of the idea of engaging in violence. But for all the reasons you can find in any argument about this, which everyone has seen repeated over and over again everywhere, I would count myself closer to Antifa than to MLK-style nonviolence. Where some people see more reactionary, "that person disagrees with me and I want to hurt them" politics, I see only a need for an abrupt, forceful negation of violence -- both actual and implied -- represented by the emergence of proud Nazis in the mainstream of American political discourse.

Everyone can be nonviolent, but few of them will ever be MLK. I think part of the reason I'm drawn to the militant side is that it seems borderline useless to be just one more frowning face in a nonviolent crowd. It isn't morally wrong to be that, and more often than not that is the only option open to me, but it doesn't feel like enough. Being a monkey, this frustrates me. Being a frustrated monkey, I want to hit things. That will feel like more.

But that isn't even half of it. The larger part of the drive comes from knowing exactly what Nazis, the Klan, and neo-Confederates represent. Not some vague ideology of nebulous hate, but the very real, historically documented murder of millions and millions of innocent people. When you fly a Nazi flag or don a stupid bedsheet like you're doing the world a favor, you are allying yourself not just with the disgusting ideology behind those murders, but the acts themselves. And worse, really, because unlike Germans in the 1920s and 30s, there is no possibility in today's world of "accidentally" falling in with murderers flying the swastika. We know what they are. There is no excuse for joining them. The act of being a Nazi is a violent act in and of itself, because it is a public proclamation that you refuse to value other human beings and are willing to murder them for no reason at all.

Then again, you know all this and you're just here to hear your keyboard clatter. So, whatever.
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IPunchNazis

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2017, 05:16:43 pm »
Then again, you know all this and you're just here to hear your keyboard clatter. So, whatever.

You had me right up until this point. Not to cry about it, but I think it was uncalled for. If I've given that impression, I'd like to know how.

Quote
When fly a Nazi flag or don a stupid bedsheet like you're doing the world a favor, you are allying yourself not just with the disgusting ideology behind those murders, but the acts themselves.

As for this, my only rebuttal that it is easier to hold an enemy to their standards than your own. In other words, understanding (not assuming, but finding agreement on) how your enemy sees themself (and particularly how they see you) can be useful in strategizing against them - in both diplomacy and war.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 05:18:56 pm by IPunchNazis »

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2017, 05:44:02 pm »
Then again, you know all this and you're just here to hear your keyboard clatter. So, whatever.

You had me right up until this point. Not to cry about it, but I think it was uncalled for. If I've given that impression, I'd like to know how.

If I haven't forgotten what the Nazis did after 70 years, why would I forget you being a troll after a matter of weeks?

Quote
Quote
When fly a Nazi flag or don a stupid bedsheet like you're doing the world a favor, you are allying yourself not just with the disgusting ideology behind those murders, but the acts themselves.

As for this, my only rebuttal that it is easier to hold an enemy to their standards than your own. In other words, understanding (not assuming, but finding agreement on) how your enemy sees themself (and particularly how they see you) can be useful in strategizing against them - in both diplomacy and war.

I understand how they see themselves. As warriors for the preservation of "white culture" or "white genes" or whatever euphemism they think will get their foot in the door of polite conversation. That is, they are militant opponents of multiculturalism and racial and sexual equality. They believe -- at the very least -- that white people exist as a somehow distinct subset of the human species, that our history and genes give us moral, intellectual, or other advantages over non-whites, and that it would be folly to lose those advantages by mingling with "other races". That is as benign as they get. By identifying themselves with symbols of murder, they are saying outright what lengths they are willing to go to in order defend their repugnant beliefs. They use those symbols specifically because of their violent connotations in an attempt to intimidate people and incite violence. I reject every foundation of every belief they have, forcefully. They see themselves as living outside the rules and regulations of our open and inclusive society -- and since "rights" are only meaningful in the context of civilization, by rejecting civilization, they have forfeited whatever rights they may have had.
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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2017, 07:07:50 pm »
I too vehemently oppose the moloch of racial, ethnic, and cultural purity. I dream of a world where nobody has fewer than three different racial backgrounds; where there is no white of black or asian or jewish or arab or whatever, just people who are mixed, really really mixed

I oppose violence except when really necessary. There's often much more that can be done with a handshake and a contagious illness.
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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2017, 09:28:08 pm »
Some people only understand "foot in their ass, fist to their face" and some of those people mean to do more than just beat up some people. You know, little things like genocide.


IPunchNazis

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 10:33:45 pm »
So, is the elusive nonviolent Discordian indeed as mythical as Sisyphus?

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 11:18:45 pm »
All right, you assclown. You mentioned in OP that even though discordianism can't be defined you expect everyone to conform to YOUR discordia, and we're all a bunch of hyper-violent mouthbreathers. But here's the deal: I haven't hit anyone in anger since I was six. I haven't tried to hurt people when I'm angry in any capacity since I was in 8th grade. I don't think violence solves most things.

You wanna know what I think about nazis? I want to punch every last fucking one of them. I'm sick of hearing other white folk venting to themselves when they've been inconvenienced, shouting about "niggers" and "queers" and "the fucking bitches," like they're the center of the fucking universe. I'm sick of having to listen to them shout about how they have a right to say and do all this shit and then whine when people go off on them for it, not realizing they've broken a social peace treaty and are no longer entitled to civility. I'm SO FUCKING SICK OF ALL OF THIS BULLSHIT, and I just want everyone of them to shut the fuck up or get fucking wrecked because they're not going to ever be sorry, ever, unless they get hurt while shouting about ethnic cleansing or w/e. If it takes a fucking baseball bat to make them hurt, I'm here for it. If it's sending their bosses photos of them at a white pride demonstration and them getting fired for it, I'm here for that, too.

Stop being a snotty son of a bitch and telling me I'm Discordiaing wrong, you asshole cunt-faced stuck-up cock knocker.
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IPunchNazis

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2017, 12:54:06 am »
So much anger.

I'm beginning to suspect that most of you come here to vent by pretending you want to be violent.

Has anyone here ever actually punched a Nazi? Advocacy of violence seems ironic if one's own knuckles aren't regularly bleeding.

But again, this thread is quickly becoming the debate I specifically wished to avoid. I'll step back and wait to see if anyone actually answers my question.

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2017, 04:24:48 am »
I've rumbled with folks for a lot less than being a Nazi. I've drawn and shed blood, and cracked and bruised tendons, ligaments, and bones. So, fuck you with you weak ass trolling.

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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2017, 04:52:47 am »
first appearance: is obvious troll
second appearance: 'guys it was just an experiment, i've decided not to be a troll', is still obvious troll.
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Re: Is anyone here an advocate for non-violence?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2017, 05:53:26 am »
Again, against violence here except in self-defense... in the understanding that sneezing on people, shaking hands with them after having diarrhea and not washing your hands, and in severe circumstances feeding them food from bulging cans or doing the thing from The Cask of Amontillado are not violence (though I personally would not do the last two due to fear of legal repercussions)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:57:34 am by Prelate Diogenes Shandor »
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.

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He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche

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