Author Topic: The left and the right  (Read 5075 times)

Doktor Howl

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2018, 03:12:00 am »
You can go ahead and disregard what I just said, on account of I didn't read the whole thread and Cram said it better.

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LuciferX

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2018, 07:15:15 am »
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2018, 08:31:33 am »
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

You are also sounding a tad bitcoin.
"Letting a God into your life is like letting "Bob" into your wallet.  It's going to hurt, because they always grab more things that they said they would."
-Some silly dead bastard in Tucson.

" Jonas Salk could SHIT ON MY DESK, and I'd still sing his praises.  No more polio kids in iron lungs or wheelchairs.  Jonas Salk did fucking MAD SCIENCE, and the world is a million times better for it."
- The same dumbass.

axod

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2018, 11:16:12 am »
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

You are also sounding a tad bitcoin.
I think he was trying to say Necronomicoin
just this

Cramulus

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2018, 03:24:54 pm »
Ivo Shandor, leader of the Cult of Gozer,

you've taken a good step--which is to be critical of the left/right divide and not get sucked into the tribe war

however, moving away from stupidity is not the same thing as moving towards intelligence

the reason the dichotomy is so powerful is that nobody, including you, has been able to express something that could actually transcend it.

The "everybody is stupid!" mentality doesn't pass the ideological sniff test. It's a negative response to negative and nothing more. You set a heading as if you were rowing towards a better world, but there's nothing in your boat but aversion. It's like "I don't like broccoli" presented as ideology.

You need to apply pressure to it. Through friction, it might be refined. When I applied the pressue to the weak points, you waved your hand. With that empty hand, grab Hume's Fork and start poking. It's not enough to dismiss what exists. It's not enough to say you want a world where people have different vaues. You have to imagine the transition between this world and the next one. And you have to explain why the world you're imagining is better for us.

I don't know how you propose to separate people from their traditions and identity. I'm not sure you've considered that basically everyone in history who has tried to accomplish this has been a total asshole. "People should stop identifing with their race" is a very white guy thing to say--people who have been persecuted for their race/ethnicity would call that "letting the racists win".

For my vote, the world you describe sounds like it would be much, much worse than the one we have now.

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 05:31:12 pm »
B-b-but, rapists would be "frowned upon"! Problem solved!

(this bit of snark brought to you by the fact that Cram already addressed the issues in a well-thought out, succinct manner).
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tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 11:14:17 pm »
I just don't understand any kind of absolute egalitarianism philosophy. Whether it's branded as anarcho-capitalism or straight anarchism or sockfucking libertarianism, it always misses the same point. In a world devoid of higher political powers enforcing a particular mode of behavior, where everyone is absolutely equal, if you fast-forward five minutes into the future, you'll end up with enormous state-level actors and oppression anyway. With no State in place to disrupt the formation of gangs that grow into confederations that crystalize into hierarchical political paradigms, then you will have gangs that grow into confederations that crystalize into hierarchical political paradigms. Because humans are assholes. We are not assholes because the government is tyrannical. We are not assholes because some have more than others. We are not assholes because of over-regulation or taxes that are too high or because of "religious indoctrination". We just are assholes, and the human way will always be the dipshit asshole way.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:17:37 pm by tyrannosaurus vex »
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Cramulus

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 11:20:59 pm »
:mittens:

Doktor Howl

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2018, 12:58:19 am »
I just don't understand any kind of absolute egalitarianism philosophy. Whether it's branded as anarcho-capitalism or straight anarchism or sockfucking libertarianism, it always misses the same point.

Newsfeed!
"Letting a God into your life is like letting "Bob" into your wallet.  It's going to hurt, because they always grab more things that they said they would."
-Some silly dead bastard in Tucson.

" Jonas Salk could SHIT ON MY DESK, and I'd still sing his praises.  No more polio kids in iron lungs or wheelchairs.  Jonas Salk did fucking MAD SCIENCE, and the world is a million times better for it."
- The same dumbass.

Pergamos

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2018, 05:35:53 am »
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

He not only didn't want them to develop better ones, he didn't want ANYTHING to replace them.  No values whatsoever.  No diversity of values, as no diversity of culture, a complete absence of both. 

Cramulus

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2018, 01:50:22 pm »
I keep trying to imagine how you could "remove all values and replace them with nothing" and still keep the stuff like "rape is frowned upon".

But then I remember, this isn't, like, a well thought-out plan. It's just disgust coupled with ++smug self certainty.



I have never read a revolutionary manifesto that doesn't come off like the Underpants Gnomes plan...


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Cain

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2018, 11:07:51 am »
Breivik's manifesto is more like

Step 1: First, we kill all the (((Cultural Marxists)))
Step 2: Thousand page digression into the history of Islam and (((Cultural Marxism))) as presented by random internet lunatics
Step 3: Wank yourself raw into a Cultural Christian Utopia.

Its basically the same thing, but the extra and completely unnecessary extra thousand pages are notable.

Pope Pelvis Flirtini

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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2018, 09:46:31 pm »
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

"I refuse to be defined by the extremes of my side while I define the other side by their extremes."
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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2018, 01:17:01 pm »
I keep trying to imagine how you could "remove all values and replace them with nothing" and still keep the stuff like "rape is frowned upon".

I'm still trying to work the specifics of that out. My current thought is maybe to give everyone a shitload of benzo and mood stabilizers
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Re: The left and the right
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2018, 03:28:28 pm »