Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So here is a question. Where I live my children and I are the minority.  I have found, on more than one occasion, that the prejudice is rarely, if ever, in our favor.  Yet if I bring it to anyone's attention, I'm the one called racist. 

For example, when we were robbed recently the black officer actually asked "What did you expect, moving into this neighborhood?"  My response was "What?  Because I'm white I should expect to be robbed?" to which he just shrugged.

I think anytime anyone regardless of race or religion is treated with prejudice it is wrong.

Wow. The point isn't "because I'm white, I should expect to be robbed" but rather a whoooole slew of fucked up attitudes on behalf of the cop:
1. Because you're white, you don't belong in that neighborhood
2. That hood (where whites don't belong and therefore, must be populated with non-whites) is one where robbery is expected and normal
3. Only non-whites have a good reason/excuse for being in a neighborhood where robbery is expected and normal

Yep. You nailed it.

[P3nT4gR4m]

What I am saying is different. I am saying that "not part of the problem" =/= "part of the solution".

I am trying to think of how I can simplify this.

Can I say "white people" without anyone getting defensive?

White people often, as I have been trying to point out, say that they don't see/think about race.

1. This is not true, no matter how much you try to redefine the terms.

2. It is also not a virtue. It's not a sin, either, but there is nothing inherently virtuous or moral about not seeing/thinking about race.

3. It is not part of the solution to race problems.

I have to disagree with this. while I would admit that being more proactive about it might help the solution come quicker it's still a step in the right direction. Imagine if all white people felt like this? There wouldn't be a problem would there? I'm not dumb enough to think I don't see the colour of someone I'm talking to but if it doesn't sway my judgement of them as a person then yes, I am part of the solution. Both in the - one less potential racist in the world - sense and as an example to and/or antagonist of any racists or would be racists who want to gain my approval.

not part of the problem = less problem by a factor of 1

Thing is, I'm pretty sure racism is a symptom of a greater problem, that problem being that the vast majority of the human race are fucking idiots. Racism is a fucking idiot position. Any smart person knows this.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What I am saying is different. I am saying that "not part of the problem" =/= "part of the solution".

I am trying to think of how I can simplify this.

Can I say "white people" without anyone getting defensive?

White people often, as I have been trying to point out, say that they don't see/think about race.

1. This is not true, no matter how much you try to redefine the terms.

2. It is also not a virtue. It's not a sin, either, but there is nothing inherently virtuous or moral about not seeing/thinking about race.

3. It is not part of the solution to race problems.

I have to disagree with this. while I would admit that being more proactive about it might help the solution come quicker it's still a step in the right direction. Imagine if all white people felt like this? There wouldn't be a problem would there? I'm not dumb enough to think I don't see the colour of someone I'm talking to but if it doesn't sway my judgement of them as a person then yes, I am part of the solution. Both in the - one less potential racist in the world - sense and as an example to and/or antagonist of any racists or would be racists who want to gain my approval.

not part of the problem = less problem by a factor of 1

Thing is, I'm pretty sure racism is a symptom of a greater problem, that problem being that the vast majority of the human race are fucking idiots. Racism is a fucking idiot position. Any smart person knows this.

"Imagine if" is pretty useless in this context.

People seem to be wanting a pat on the back for not being offensive.

They seem to want to think that by not doing a bad thing, they are doing a good thing. That does not, actually, compute. 

There is nothing offensive about "not thinking about race". There is nothing offensive about "thinking about race", either. Since neither are offensive, there is nothing inherently better about one than about the other, except that in the wake of European expansion white people have the option of "not thinking about race" and brown people don't.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

[navkat]

That's what Roger was trying to say.

What *I* was saying is that I'll gladly be proactive if I'm needed to do so or see a situation where I should step in but meantime being mostly oblivious is actually emulatory (is that a word?) of where normal for everyone should be and actually works towards normalizing.

It's my "Hey, I'm cool, you're cool. We're both cool!" attitude.

[navkat]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

That's fair.

So we're doing the bare minimum that's expected out of us, basically.
The arrogance of saying "Hey, I'm doing you a favor by not telling black jokes. ISN'T THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU PEOPLE?"

[navkat]

That is kinda unhelpful and messed up when you look at it that way.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

So here is a question. Where I live my children and I are the minority.  I have found, on more than one occasion, that the prejudice is rarely, if ever, in our favor.  Yet if I bring it to anyone's attention, I'm the one called racist. 

For example, when we were robbed recently the black officer actually asked "What did you expect, moving into this neighborhood?"  My response was "What?  Because I'm white I should expect to be robbed?" to which he just shrugged.

I think anytime anyone regardless of race or religion is treated with prejudice it is wrong.

Wow. The point isn't "because I'm white, I should expect to be robbed" but rather a whoooole slew of fucked up attitudes on behalf of the cop:
1. Because you're white, you don't belong in that neighborhood
2. That hood (where whites don't belong and therefore, must be populated with non-whites) is one where robbery is expected and normal
3. Only non-whites have a good reason/excuse for being in a neighborhood where robbery is expected and normal

Alternatively:
1) Because you clearly don't like getting robbed, you don't belong
2) This place has a statistically observable higher instance of crimes like theft
3) If you don't like getting robbed, maybe you should not live somewhere with a pre-existing high crime rate

It's easy for white folks to jump on the "OTHER PEOPLE ARE RACIST TOO!" idea, but the fact is that even if you have to deal with racial prejudice in your local area as a white person, chances are pretty good that a) your family hasn't been subjected to those pressures for hundreds of years, resulting in fewer opportunities for socio-economic advancement and b) it's just your local area, and you still reap the benefits of being a white person in a predominantly white society on a larger scale.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

Fair enough on the math thing I concede that point but with the dog and the liquor store you are doing what's right. Ignoring someones skin colour is doing what's right. I don't lead (or even follow) moral crusades so that's all you're going to get out of me. Aside from if someone I'm hanging out with gets all racist on my ass I'll tear them to shreds. That's not a token gesture, btw, I attack any form of stupidity on sight. It's just the way I'm wired. Making idiots feel stupid is something I can rarely resist.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

So I'm the one in the wrong?  Is that what is being said here?

I want to be really clear before the accusations of my being a bitch start flying.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

That's fair.

So we're doing the bare minimum that's expected out of us, basically.
The arrogance of saying "Hey, I'm doing you a favor by not telling black jokes. ISN'T THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU PEOPLE?"

Yep. Now you get it.

Thinking/saying that you're part of the solution because you're not adding to the problem is a false equation.

It would be like a man saying to you, "I'm totally not sexist; I don't even hit my wife. If everybody treated women the way I do, sexism wouldn't even be an issue; therefore, I am helping to end domestic violence".

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Yep. Now you get it.

Thinking/saying that you're part of the solution because you're not adding to the problem is a false equation.

It would be like a man saying to you, "I'm totally not sexist; I don't even hit my wife. If everybody treated women the way I do, sexism wouldn't even be an issue; therefore, I am helping to end domestic violence".

So because I feel that the officer was being racist is a direct result of my living in a neighborhood (try to find one in this city that doesn't have a high crime rate btw) that has a high crime rate?  Not that he was in the wrong, but I am wrong for being upset with what he said and for living where I do?

When my children are not accepted into programs because of their color, it is my fault for having them in a city school where they are the  minority?  Not that myself or my kids are being profiled?

Is that what you are saying?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So I'm the one in the wrong?  Is that what is being said here?

I want to be really clear before the accusations of my being a bitch start flying.

No; the cop was. But on a larger level, the cop's attitudes are far more reflective of anti-black racism than anti-white racism. He was engaging in two wrongs: victim-blaming about you, and racism about the neighborhood. but he was also essentially saying that white people don't belong in black neighborhoods because black neighborhoods are bad. He may himself have been black, but that's one of the funny things about racism; in a situation where racism is systemic throughout culture, many people end up being racist against themselves.

At the beginning of your post, you said that you had a question. I was wondering what that question was, because it didn't make it into your post?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yep. Now you get it.

Thinking/saying that you're part of the solution because you're not adding to the problem is a false equation.

It would be like a man saying to you, "I'm totally not sexist; I don't even hit my wife. If everybody treated women the way I do, sexism wouldn't even be an issue; therefore, I am helping to end domestic violence".

So because I feel that the officer was being racist is a direct result of my living in a neighborhood (try to find one in this city that doesn't have a high crime rate btw) that has a high crime rate?  Not that he was in the wrong, but I am wrong for being upset with what he said and for living where I do?

When my children are not accepted into programs because of their color, it is my fault for having them in a city school where they are the  minority?  Not that myself or my kids are being profiled?

Is that what you are saying?

Uh... no. What are you on about now?

[Sita]

Yep. Now you get it.

Thinking/saying that you're part of the solution because you're not adding to the problem is a false equation.

It would be like a man saying to you, "I'm totally not sexist; I don't even hit my wife. If everybody treated women the way I do, sexism wouldn't even be an issue; therefore, I am helping to end domestic violence".

So because I feel that the officer was being racist is a direct result of my living in a neighborhood (try to find one in this city that doesn't have a high crime rate btw) that has a high crime rate?  Not that he was in the wrong, but I am wrong for being upset with what he said and for living where I do?

When my children are not accepted into programs because of their color, it is my fault for having them in a city school where they are the  minority?  Not that myself or my kids are being profiled?

Is that what you are saying?

I think that quote was a response to P3nt, not you Khara