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Uncanny valley turned up to eleven.

Started by Kai, February 12, 2012, 12:26:16 AM

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minuspace

Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on February 12, 2012, 01:35:40 PM
About the mechanical limitations of propellers and wheels:

Though there are some organisms that spin themselves through liquid, and some animals that roll up in an elipse or ball to wheel across the landscape, there are no organisms that posess a propeller or wheel. And the reasons for that are pretty clear. Both propellers and wheels require a part that can freely spin on an axel, that is completely decoupled from the main body. This may be possible in a colonial organism, where the parts are made up of individual organisms which are semi-independent, but it could not happen in a single organism. It would be like having a hand that was detached from and yet still controlled and fed by the body. Even if the mechanism that rotated the wheel was enclosed in a cellular structure, theres the matter of the seam and how it exposes parts to the environment. You would certainly not see this in a small terrestrial animal, because the water loss would be tremendous.

I mean, think of how we get rotating parts in machines. In an electric motor, it is almost always a coiling current around decoupled, freely moving magnets.

There is something very interesting about this thought and how it applies to the way in which we conceive space.  I just tried articulating the intuition several times and failed...

What I'm thinking about is translating the intuitions regarding hypothetical 2d "persons" into the problem of conceiving a "decoupled" 3d organism that can drive rotation of it's parts.  I particular, to start, I thought about how a 2-d "entity" is even more fucked when it comes to being shafted:  the 2d entity can afford some perforation, however, a digestive tract from end to end would essentially "decouple" the figure - cutting it in half.

Adding a dimension, I can safely conceive of a 3d object accommodating a negative 3d volume throughout, without it falling apart.  In order for this to obtain, the negative volume can span from end to end along only one axis.  Another way to think about this is how you need a long sword to cut someone in half with one stroke.

The hypothetical upshot would be conceiving how a 3d organism could accommodate a decoupled motor by modeling the same organism in 4d instead...  The last intuition involves mechanisms converting rotational/translational and continuous/intermittent motion...

  Eh...  Is it worth sharing these par-baked Thoughts?

Triple Zero

Quote from: LuciferX on April 06, 2012, 11:02:27 PM
What I'm thinking about is translating the intuitions regarding hypothetical 2d "persons" into the problem of conceiving a "decoupled" 3d organism that can drive rotation of it's parts.  I particular, to start, I thought about how a 2-d "entity" is even more fucked when it comes to being shafted:  the 2d entity can afford some perforation, however, a digestive tract from end to end would essentially "decouple" the figure - cutting it in half.

I book I read once called "The Fourth Dimension" used some stories set in Flatland as examples.

The solution posed for this was to have the digestive tract shaped like the cut between two puzzle pieces, so it would still "hang" together.

Of course this is analogous to an axle doesn't fall out of a car because it's stuck through a hole.

So this flatland creature might be mechanically plausible, but not biologically.

QuoteAdding a dimension, I can safely conceive of a 3d object accommodating a negative 3d volume throughout, without it falling apart.  In order for this to obtain, the negative volume can span from end to end along only one axis.  Another way to think about this is how you need a long sword to cut someone in half with one stroke.

The hypothetical upshot would be conceiving how a 3d organism could accommodate a decoupled motor by modeling the same organism in 4d instead...  The last intuition involves mechanisms converting rotational/translational and continuous/intermittent motion...

  Eh...  Is it worth sharing these par-baked Thoughts?

Well personally I don't know much about it, but a friend of mine did a research topic on Knot Theory, from the field of Topology. A knot in this case is a circular piece of rope, and being in the field of topology means that you can deform and stretch as much as you like but you cannot cut or glue parts of it together.

The trivial knot is a circle, also called a "link".

The simplest "real" knot is called the trefoil knot. You can probably imagine what it looks like, otherwise do an image search.

Now one of the weird things he explained me is that you obviously cannot deform a trefoil into a link without cutting and gluing it. However, if you consider the negative space of a trefoil knot (so this would be a big block of putty with a trefoil shaped tunnel in the middle of it) and deform that you can deform it back into a link (or any other 3D knot).

At least, I think it was like that. I could remember it wrong, but there was something you could do in the negative space that you normally couldn't.

Also if you can deform the (positive) knot in four dimensions you can also untie it.

And then there was something where you could associate knots with polynomials and use that to figure out whether two knots are in fact the same knot (homologous, homomorphic, homo-something-or-other).

Except that even in that representation it was still a hard problem. Maybe even NP-hard, but again I'm not sure.

If you're interested in that sort of thing, I bet Wikipedia and Mathworld have loads on it.

Or maybe just start here: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/junkyard/knot.html (the geometry junkyard is a great place to spend some time in! it's quite old so some of the links may be dead, but usually Archive.org's Wayback Machine has them still).
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e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Elder Iptuous

interesting read.
The fellow who first came up with the concept of the Uncanny Valley (back in 1970) recently had an interview with IEEE to get his perspective on the topic after all these years...

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Kai

I've been thinking more about the biological wheel problem, and I think I've discovered a solution. In a single organism, it wouldn't work, but in a colonial organism it could. The biological "axel" could spin within a fluid filled invagination, perhaps by cillia, or some sort of skeletal gear tooth mechanism. The issue then becomes, how does the axel and wheels part communicate with the chassis part, when to stop and go, or forward and reverse?
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

Yeah that shit really. Just makes me want to end everything.  I don't mean ME, I mean EVERYTHING.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

I'd be okay with shit like cyborg dawgs.  I mean, cruel and all, but at least it's creepy & futuristic.

Here, we just injected Black people with syphilis and recorded the results as they died.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
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- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 13, 2012, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

I'd be okay with shit like cyborg dawgs.  I mean, cruel and all, but at least it's creepy & futuristic.

Here, we just injected Black people with syphilis and recorded the results as they died.

We don't do things like that anymore. We just conduct experimental drug trials on people who are desperate for things like cash or bunion surgery.  :x
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

minuspace

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

It saddens me to say I came across that on a drive the other day - how they validate the (re)existence of "life" is questionable ((autonomic response?) lemon juice?!?!?)...
:horrormirth:

Trip: I'm gonna read that again after sleep

minuspace

Quote from: Triple Zero on April 07, 2012, 12:14:55 AM

...book I read once called "The Fourth Dimension" used some stories set in Flatland as examples.

The solution posed for this was to have the digestive tract shaped like the cut between two puzzle pieces, so it would still "hang" together.

Of course this is analogous to an axle doesn't fall out of a car because it's stuck through a hole.

So this flatland creature might be mechanically plausible, but not biologically.
...

Well personally I don't know much about it, but a friend of mine did a research topic on Knot Theory, from the field of Topology. A knot in this case is a circular piece of rope, and being in the field of topology means that you can deform and stretch as much as you like but you cannot cut or glue parts of it together.

The trivial knot is a circle, also called a "link".

The simplest "real" knot is called the trefoil knot. You can probably imagine what it looks like, otherwise do an image search.

Now one of the weird things he explained me is that you obviously cannot deform a trefoil into a link without cutting and gluing it. However, if you consider the negative space of a trefoil knot (so this would be a big block of putty with a trefoil shaped tunnel in the middle of it) and deform that you can deform it back into a link (or any other 3D knot).

At least, I think it was like that. I could remember it wrong, but there was something you could do in the negative space that you normally couldn't.

Also if you can deform the (positive) knot in four dimensions you can also untie it.

And then there was something where you could associate knots with polynomials and use that to figure out whether two knots are in fact the same knot (homologous, homomorphic, homo-something-or-other).

Except that even in that representation it was still a hard problem. Maybe even NP-hard, but again I'm not sure.

If you're interested in that sort of thing, I bet Wikipedia and Mathworld have loads on it.

Or maybe just start here: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/junkyard/knot.html (the geometry junkyard is a great place to spend some time in! it's quite old so some of the links may be dead, but usually Archive.org's Wayback Machine has them still).

Love that junkyard, and all the topology stuff...  It's interesting how stellations, like negative space inversions (subtracting) and/or adding dimensions can solve problems like cutting knots, even though the process would seem to negate the "conditions" of topology.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: LuciferX on June 14, 2012, 08:00:38 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

It saddens me to say I came across that on a drive the other day - how they validate the (re)existence of "life" is questionable ((autonomic response?) lemon juice?!?!?)...
:horrormirth:

Trip: I'm gonna read that again after sleep

I probably ought to sleep, but: WHAT?
Are you saying you were driving and you came across an animal head on a robot?  :eek:
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

minuspace

#26
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 23, 2012, 06:43:19 AM
Quote from: LuciferX on June 14, 2012, 08:00:38 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

It saddens me to say I came across that on a drive the other day - how they validate the (re)existence of "life" is questionable ((autonomic response?) lemon juice?!?!?)...
:horrormirth:

Trip: I'm gonna read that again after sleep

I probably ought to sleep, but: WHAT?
Are you saying you were driving and you came across an animal head on a robot?  :eek:
You really want me to link/upload it?
[ed:  the "drive" was a computer HDD that was also being revived] 18

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: LuciferX on June 23, 2012, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 23, 2012, 06:43:19 AM
Quote from: LuciferX on June 14, 2012, 08:00:38 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 12, 2012, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on April 02, 2012, 04:45:54 PM
As hilariously creepy as that is, it's not uncanny valley stuff. More like MAD SCIENTIST stuff.

The ape head might be fake, but it looks dead.

It reminds me of those Russian dog experiments. NOT googling for a link, but you know the ones. Some of that stuff was supposed to be fake but not all of it. There's a drawing (luckily just a drawing) of this absurd huge robot with a collie head on it.

It saddens me to say I came across that on a drive the other day - how they validate the (re)existence of "life" is questionable ((autonomic response?) lemon juice?!?!?)...
:horrormirth:

Trip: I'm gonna read that again after sleep

I probably ought to sleep, but: WHAT?
Are you saying you were driving and you came across an animal head on a robot?  :eek:
You really want me to link/upload it?
[ed:  the "drive" was a computer HDD that was also being revived] 18

Ah, that kind of drive. Now it makes sense.
But no thanks, don't want to see it.
That shit can fuck me up for days.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

minuspace

I know, right?  At first the fascination cedes to some kind of rubbernecking, then it just turns plain wrong...  Sorry, just sympathizing here.

Triple Zero

Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on June 13, 2012, 04:01:35 AM
I've been thinking more about the biological wheel problem, and I think I've discovered a solution. In a single organism, it wouldn't work, but in a colonial organism it could. The biological "axel" could spin within a fluid filled invagination, perhaps by cillia, or some sort of skeletal gear tooth mechanism. The issue then becomes, how does the axel and wheels part communicate with the chassis part, when to stop and go, or forward and reverse?

Wow, that's a really interesting idea!!

Pheromones probably won't work fast enough? Or could they be made to?

Fortunately there's other "distance sensing" options, even for simple organisms.

Bees must recognize that dancing communication pretty fast, right? Do they use vision, or some other sense?

I can also imagine some kind of cross between an antenna and a neuron/nerve type of thing. It would slide against the outer rim, not unlike the pole mounted on bumper cars gets electricity from the ceiling. You could have a whole bunch of radial "spokes" like these.

... wait I just looked up what "cilia" are, you were probably thinking of roughly the same thing then?

Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.