Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: Verbal Mike on June 28, 2008, 01:51:28 AM

Title: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 28, 2008, 01:51:28 AM
I used to tell people we live in an Anarchist Utopia. It was a kind of IRL troll in the days I used to hang out with activist-types. It was a lot of fun, because it is a very difficult claim difficult to argue against: we are all free to do as we will. You can smoke a joint in front of a police station - you just have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. You can do anything you can get away with.

It is very easy to confuse what we can't do with what we shouldn't do. It is all too easy to forget that we have the choice. The internet pirate, downloading and propogating stolen materials, he has the choice. And stopping at a red light, I had the choice to keep going and risk arrest or injury.

Freedom, in this its most basic sense, seems rather constant in human history across space and time. The only way people have managed to truly limit freedom in this sense is imprisonment of others - and this has always been applied to a small minority, even in extreme cases where entire ethnic groups were rounded up and confined.

So if we sense we are in a state of decreasing freedom, clearly the freedom we are referring to is not this freedom of choice, ever so hard to truly limit. The freedoms now being slowly taken away must be subtler ones - indeed, these freedoms must consist of our choices not being affected unduly by outside considerations. I should be able to write what I want, when I want, where I want, without this choice being affected by fear of retribution. Imposing this fear is a subtle encroachment upon my freedom.

But perhaps the easiest way to limit one's freedom is to make one forget this freedom ever existed in the first place. After all, why put a man behind iron bars when you can just train him to stay indoors? If you can convince The People that they should not do what you do not wish them to do, you save a great deal of energy you would otherwise spend actually stopping them from doing it. If you can convince them that they cannot do this, cannot go there, all the better.

It is good to remember once in a while that we are fundamentally free. We may have fears imposed on us by unjust rulers. We may have to face choices no free person should be forced to face. We may have to take great care to preserve our freedom. But we are free nonetheless, and the choice is ours. Merely knowing we are free is half the battle.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: fomenter on June 28, 2008, 02:00:59 AM
 :mittens: i like this a lot
Quoting this part

-"So if we sense we are in a state of decreasing freedom, clearly the freedom we are referring to is not this freedom of choice, ever so hard to truly limit. The freedoms now being slowly taken away must be subtler ones - indeed, these freedoms must consist of our choices not being affected unduly by outside considerations. I should be able to write what I want, when I want, where I want, without this choice being affected by fear of retribution. Imposing this fear is a subtle encroachment upon my freedom.

Because its worth repeating
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Golden Applesauce on June 28, 2008, 02:10:46 AM
Very true, up to a point.  You certainly can paint yourself in woad and sacrifice chickens on the white house lawn.  But I bet you can't do it twice.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on June 28, 2008, 09:52:07 AM
What about morality?

(not trolling, I'm honestly interested in what you have to say)
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 28, 2008, 12:42:25 PM
I can't judge whether a given moral code is right or wrong - I believe that's a subjective, personal matter. But I think mostly when someone follows a moral code, they merely use it to aggrandize their own likes and dislikes, in some cases adapting the latter to their moral code, in more cases vice-versa.
I don't bother with "right" and "wrong" anymore, there's only "like" and "dislike".
In the context of the freedom of choice, I'd say people who lead a moral life are exercizing their freedom by choosing to do the things they find tasteful and abstaining from those things they find distasteful.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on June 28, 2008, 10:08:09 PM
I was just thinking about whether or not I could physically make myself kill another person.  In that case, my own personal morality is interfering with complete freedom, but since I'm not a complete nihilist I can accept that.  I think part of being a social creature is creating/accepting rules for behavior.  The only way anyone can be completely free is to live completely alone.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Anch on June 28, 2008, 10:29:41 PM
:mittens:

I really liked that piece; seems to be something that gets easily forgotten:
You can do anything you want, and you will face the consequences, just like everybody else.

Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Golden Applesauce on June 28, 2008, 10:42:07 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 28, 2008, 10:08:09 PM
I was just thinking about whether or not I could physically make myself kill another person.  In that case, my own personal morality is interfering with complete freedom, but since I'm not a complete nihilist I can accept that.  I think part of being a social creature is creating/accepting rules for behavior.  The only way anyone can be completely free is to live completely alone.

And yet, if I lived completely alone, I wouldn't have the freedom to make friends or to kill people other than myself.  Complete freedom is impossible, I think, since some choices are mutually exclusive with other choices.  That, and annoying things like the laws of thermodynamics get in the way of some actions I would like to perform.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 29, 2008, 04:06:26 AM
Yes, you are not particularly free to stand on your balcony and fly off into the night. If you are simply not capable of killing someone (btw, I'm probably incapable of it too) that doesn't make you less free, imho.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 29, 2008, 05:20:25 AM
Verbatim: If it's all right, I'd like to use this on our website.

I have a friend who survived solitary confinement for several months (30 days is the ordinary maximum they can give you in America) by thinking about all the freedom e had, even in a tiny one-person cell.  E'd think things like I can eat all the food they give me, or some of it, or none of it.  I can throw it on the floor.  I can be quiet, I can talk to myself, I can whistle any tune, I can sing any song I want, I can scream.  E realized that, even locked up by emself, e had virtually endless choices.  Several others lost it; but almost every day, my friend experienced joy.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 29, 2008, 06:10:56 AM
That's a great little anecdote, Rev.
Go ahead and yoink the piece. Mentioning I wrote it would be nice, but only if it fits your format.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Triple Zero on June 29, 2008, 10:39:50 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 29, 2008, 05:20:25 AM
Verbatim: If it's all right, I'd like to use this on our website.

I have a friend who survived solitary confinement for several months (30 days is the ordinary maximum they can give you in America) by thinking about all the freedom e had, even in a tiny one-person cell.  E'd think things like I can eat all the food they give me, or some of it, or none of it.  I can throw it on the floor.  I can be quiet, I can talk to myself, I can whistle any tune, I can sing any song I want, I can scream.  E realized that, even locked up by emself, e had virtually endless choices.  Several others lost it; but almost every day, my friend experienced joy.

is your h-key broken?

Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Golden Applesauce on June 29, 2008, 03:51:36 PM
No, e's being gender neutral.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Triple Zero on June 29, 2008, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 29, 2008, 03:51:36 PM
No, e's being gender neutral.

oh i couldn't tell, because, as far as i've learned, in the second obsessive form past tense, the h turns light pink and the gender-trace is signified by a superscripted blue asterisk.

let me fix that for him:

Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 29, 2008, 05:20:25 AMI have a friend who survived solitary confinement for several months (30 days is the ordinary maximum they can give you in America) by thinking about all the freedom he*z had, even in a tiny one-person cell.  Z;i'd think things like I can eat all the food they give me, or some of it, or none of it.  I can throw it on the floor.  I can be quiet, I can talk to myself, I can whistle any tune, I can sing any song I want, I can scream.  Z;ii realized that, even locked up by izs..lf, !!* had virtually endless choices.  Several others lost it; but almost every day, my friend experienced joy.

see, it's not that hard. thanks to the internet, we can now properly express these things, without having to resort to outdated methods such as just making up shit all by yourself (Goddiz forbid!)
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Nast on June 29, 2008, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: triple zero on June 29, 2008, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 29, 2008, 05:20:25 AMI have a friend who survived solitary confinement for several months (30 days is the ordinary maximum they can give you in America) by thinking about all the freedom he*z had, even in a tiny one-person cell.  Z;i'd think things like I can eat all the food they give me, or some of it, or none of it.  I can throw it on the floor.  I can be quiet, I can talk to myself, I can whistle any tune, I can sing any song I want, I can scream.  Z;ii realized that, even locked up by izs..lf, !!* had virtually endless choices.  Several others lost it; but almost every day, my friend experienced joy.

see, it's not that hard. thanks to the internet, we can now properly express these things, without having to resort to outdated methods such as just making up shit all by yourself (Goddiz forbid!)

Teehee   :lol:

Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on June 29, 2008, 06:07:57 PM
I didn't really want to derail this thread to talk about it but

Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 29, 2008, 05:24:26 AM
SERIOUSLY THOUGH STOP MANGLING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE YOU MOUTHBREATHER


e e e e e e e e e
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 30, 2008, 04:10:00 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 29, 2008, 06:10:56 AM
That's a great little anecdote, Rev.
Go ahead and yoink the piece. Mentioning I wrote it would be nice, but only if it fits your format.

We'll give you credit, definitely.  Do you want to be called Verbatim, St. Verbatim?
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2008, 04:19:15 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 30, 2008, 04:10:00 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 29, 2008, 06:10:56 AM
That's a great little anecdote, Rev.
Go ahead and yoink the piece. Mentioning I wrote it would be nice, but only if it fits your format.

We'll give you credit, definitely.  Do you want to be called Verbatim, St. Verbatim?

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 30, 2008, 06:06:22 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 30, 2008, 04:10:00 AM
Do you want to be called Verbatim, St. Verbatim?
It doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on June 30, 2008, 07:19:04 AM
WHY ARE YOU LETTING E PUT ES FILTHY PAWS ALL OVER YOUR STUFF


E E E E E E E
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: LMNO on June 30, 2008, 06:09:44 PM
Quote from: triple zero on June 29, 2008, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 29, 2008, 03:51:36 PM
No, e's being gender neutral.

oh i couldn't tell, because, as far as i've learned, in the second obsessive form past tense, the h turns light pink and the gender-trace is signified by a superscripted blue asterisk.

let me fix that for him:

Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 29, 2008, 05:20:25 AMI have a friend who survived solitary confinement for several months (30 days is the ordinary maximum they can give you in America) by thinking about all the freedom he*z had, even in a tiny one-person cell.  Z;i'd think things like I can eat all the food they give me, or some of it, or none of it.  I can throw it on the floor.  I can be quiet, I can talk to myself, I can whistle any tune, I can sing any song I want, I can scream.  Z;ii realized that, even locked up by izs..lf, !!* had virtually endless choices.  Several others lost it; but almost every day, my friend experienced joy.

see, it's not that hard. thanks to the internet, we can now properly express these things, without having to resort to outdated methods such as just making up shit all by yourself (Goddiz forbid!)


Coffee, meet monitor.


Also, brilliant OP.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 30, 2008, 06:25:27 PM
btw, this is one of those things where I basically scribbled down a sentence and then kept going to see if it can become anything worthwhile... I'm very pleasantly surprised that anyone liked it. (I was so sure it's worthless, I didn't put it on my blog till yesterday.:oops:)
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 30, 2008, 06:28:51 PM
I never understood why someone with a gender (assuming the fellow in Solitary had one) would be referred to in a gender neutral way. That is, if speaking generically about humans maybe some gender neutrality would be OK... but in a anecdote, I'm not sure it makes sense.
Did the person in prison have a gender, were they androgynous, did they have some horrible encounter with a shiv that changed their gender??
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 30, 2008, 06:40:01 PM
I actually sympathize with the concept of gender-neutralizing a language... There's no actual logical reason in the first place to *necessarily* have to refer to people in a way that indicates their gender... And it makes some people uncomfortable (like my transsexual colleague, who is now starting on hormone therapy, thus producing much lulz in the workplace). Ideally, we *should* be able to refer to people in a gender-neutral way when their gender is irrelevant.
However, the English language is not gender-neutral, and like it or not, referring to people as "e" is a bastardization of the language and comes off as funny, weird, and annoying.
That said, I believe it is the right of native speakers to use a language however the fuck they want, because this is how languages change (not by governments defining a standard dialect.) So do ye as ye will.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Nast on June 30, 2008, 06:48:33 PM
As far as I understand it, the term "gender" is used in terms of social roles and identity choices, and the term "sex" has wholly to do with biology (you either have dangly-bits or not-dangly-bits, generally). Most often, people determine their gender as with what sex they were born with. Others, however, may feel that they are truly "male" or "female"  even though physically they were born with the wrong genitalia, i.e. transgendered people.

In our culture, "male" and "female" genders are determined if you have either a penis or a vagina. In other cultures, gender can also be determined by other factors, such as one's behaviors or social position (think two-spirited shamans in certain American Indian societies).

So, as what roles and conventions that determine what male and female really are arbitrarily determined by a society, people may feel that gender is fluid. So then people feel that pronouns in the English are to strict to express such things, and instead make up ad hoc ways to do this. Which, while perfectly acceptable, will be considered extremely tasteless if you do it outlandishly.


Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 30, 2008, 06:54:07 PM
It occurs to me that a possibly more gentle way to achieve the same thing would be to consistently use "he" or "she" (as in, you choose one and stick to it) whenever you wish to keep gender neutral. It would sound less weird, and might potentially spread over time and become an accepted convention.
(In modern Israeli Hebrew, the male gender can be used to refer to neutral objects, as no neutral gender exists in the language. However, this also has roots in the fact that a group is referred to as male if the gender is mixed [plurals have genders in Hebrew.] All this said, it would still sound just as weird as in English to refer to a vagina-bearing human as "he".)
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Triple Zero on June 30, 2008, 09:06:10 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 30, 2008, 06:40:01 PM
I actually sympathize with the concept of gender-neutralizing a language... There's no actual logical reason in the first place to *necessarily* have to refer to people in a way that indicates their gender...

well there sort of is ...

(according to what i read in Steven Pinker's The language instinct) the human brain has a sort of mold for language. and cases and tenses and such are part of that.
so a language will naturally evolve to whatever cases are relevant. which can be male/female just as well as object/place (and more).

it helps language be more easy to understand.

once transgenderneutralqueerness gets accepted and normal, i'm sure the language will change. hey, maybe these are actually the first signs of it.

i just don't like it. which is another thing about the language mold. i learned dutch and english (and some german and a tiny bit of french) and making up words is completely fine, as long as they're verbs, nouns, adverbs and such. but once you get to the pronouns (and other things too i suppose), you're hitting a completely different module in the language brain, one that is quite fundamental to understanding any language.
where i'm completely okay with german and english not having a word for "gezellig", or english and dutch not quite being able to capture the meaning of "gemuetlich", "awkward" being incredibly hard to translate, oh and the dutch interjection "sterkte!" for wishing someone well with whatever troubles they have.
but words for addressing someone .. i dunno it kinda fucks with my head. which is why i don't like it. if you want a pronoun, pick "it", it's already part of the language and it's there to be claimed for anyone. you get accepted, no more gender-awkwardness, and seriously i think it's easier for people to get used to the idea of "it" referring to a person (without any negative connotation), than to accept some extra pronoun (for which might to be learned an entire own case-system in natural languages).
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on June 30, 2008, 09:25:26 PM
English already has a word for the generic singular human:  "he" and "him".  It's no more sexist than saying "mankind" and anyone who thinks differently is the same kind of person who thinks saying "herstory" instead of history is a brilliant idea.  Attempting to create gender neutrality in a non gender neutral language is utter idiocy.  At worst, excessively sensitive people can say "they" and "them" even though it is grammatically correct.  There is absolutely no need to run around making up new words for a non-issue.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Adios on July 01, 2008, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 30, 2008, 07:19:04 AM
WHY ARE YOU LETTING E PUT ES FILTHY PAWS ALL OVER YOUR STUFF


E E E E E E E
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2008, 09:24:36 PM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on July 01, 2008, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 30, 2008, 07:19:04 AM
WHY ARE YOU LETTING E PUT ES FILTHY PAWS ALL OVER YOUR STUFF


E E E E E E E

:retard:
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 02, 2008, 03:03:47 AM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 30, 2008, 09:25:26 PM
English already has a word for the generic singular human:  "he" and "him".  It's no more sexist than saying "mankind" and anyone who thinks differently is the same kind of person who thinks saying "herstory" instead of history is a brilliant idea.  Attempting to create gender neutrality in a non gender neutral language is utter idiocy.  At worst, excessively sensitive people can say "they" and "them" even though it is grammatically correct.  There is absolutely no need to run around making up new words for a non-issue.

No, English doesn't. Nobody that speaks English will assume that a "he" is anything but male.

However, until our culture makes some huge change and a third set of pronouns gets used, "they" works just fine, won't upset or confuse anybody (sane), and is already in use enough so that it takes virtually no effort on your part to just use that when you don't know the gender of who you're discussing.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: bones on July 02, 2008, 08:50:31 AM
consider this thread completely derailed.. but great OP btw.

"He" means 'that male person', "She" means 'that female person', ("It" means 'did you get that thing i sent'ya')

Why should we have these specific sex-biased pronouns, and not have a word for 'that black person', 'that stupid person' or 'that christian person'.
Well, it's obviously because the language evolved among people who where all white christians so the only easy thing to define people by was their sex.

I would really like to rape our language in it's ass, let's start with creating a PHONETIC alphabet FFS!
Conservatives must surely realize that everything we've got now we have because we INVENTED the damn stuff, and there is no reason to settle for anything that's hundreds or thousands of years old.. We can do better!
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Nast on July 02, 2008, 09:01:06 AM
Quote from: bones on July 02, 2008, 08:50:31 AM


Why should we have these specific sex-biased pronouns, and not have a word for 'that black person', 'that stupid person' or 'that christian person'.
Well, it's obviously because the language evolved among people who where all white christians so the only easy thing to define people by was their sex.


Actually, the English language dates back far before everyone was "all white Christians" as you describe it. English is a West Germanic language, and originated from a variety of Anglo-Frisian dialects and influences from occupying Roman military and Germanic settlers. All of these cultures were non-Christian, and were not as homogeneous as one would like to think - especially with later influences to the English language by an extremely wide variety of of cultures.

Furthermore, English is one of the most (if not the most) diverse language in the world. This is not only because of its status as a global lingua franca, but also because of extensive intercultural contact, colonialism, and a capacity for constant change.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: bones on July 02, 2008, 09:27:03 AM
OK, my spurios assertions won't stand up to anyone who knows their shit.

I still think we could rebuild our alphabet to be phonetic.

Why keep things more complicated than they need to be?
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Nast on July 02, 2008, 10:06:20 AM
While I think it would be wonderful to somehow make our language simpler, more practical, or more elegant, the unfortunate truth is that both language and people don't move towards the sort of artificial pragmaticism.

Even if someone was able to find a way to make English effectively more functioning, they would never find a way to implement it on a large scale. People are just naturally resistant to change - after all, the average native English-speaker is perfectly comfortable expressing him/herself on a day-to-day basis.
Any sort of mass change in the public's life, especially to something as central as language, is bound to meet resistant. Heck, the American public couldn't even switch to the metric system when it was proposed. And not only would one have to change language conventions in America, but also in the entire English-speaking world.

I guess a way to describe it is that language is like a big jellyfish, that floats in the ocean and is only occasionally moved by a passing current of changing cultural customs, new ideas, or natural language shift. This may seem painfully slow to us - who are used to rapid action and changing customs - but it's a natural process, and we already have a good deal of flexibility in our language already.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on July 02, 2008, 10:32:07 AM
Not to mention it would be patently impossible to create a phonetic alphabet for the English language without strongly preferring a very narrow dialect. There is an amazingly huge variety of dialects in English, and if I were to assemble a perfect alphabet to phonetically transcribe how I speak, I doubt there would be a single other person on these boards who could use the same alphabet without modification.

A few years ago I tried to do this, by the way. I assumed that if I could efficiently and phonetically describe each phoneme in my speech, others could read it the same as I do but merely modify the pronunciation of certain phonemes - not so. Take for instance "either" - some people pronounce it /eeDHUR/, some pronounce it /ayDHUR/ and some pronounce it /ayDA(r)/. I could personally spell both "either" and "height" with a vowel for "ay" - but many Americans pronounce the former with "ee", whereas the latter stays "ay" across most dialects.
In other words, the two phonemes are identical in my own idiolect, but distinct in others. The fact of the matter is, English orthography is a poor mangled beast, but the different dialects are tied in with it deeply, and it is precisely the ambiguity of pronunciation that allows it to remain relevant across drastically different styles of pronunciation.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cain on July 02, 2008, 12:52:11 PM
I have no problem with a third gender pronoun per se....I just have problems with people who use ones they made up, or use them when the person in question is identifiably male or female and identifies themselves as such.  I'd like a standard term and convetion for its use, basically.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Triple Zero on July 02, 2008, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: bones on July 02, 2008, 09:27:03 AM
OK, my spurios assertions won't stand up to anyone who knows their shit.

please to assume there's always someone on this board that "knows their shit" about any subject, and personally i'd always much rather hear their opinions on that subject than anyone's spurious assumptions.

QuoteI still think we could rebuild our alphabet to be phonetic.

Why keep things more complicated than they need to be?

because, as Nasturtiums said, that's not how languages work.

languages are formed and molded in an organic yet intuitively understandable way, even though it doesn't need to be optimal. just like DNA code is the most horrible example of unstructured programming you can ever imagine.
kids growing up with your "perfect" language will deform and vandalize it back into a (different) organic language, within one generation. check out the difference between pidgin and creole languages. ok, slightly different situation because those are impromptu made-on-the-spot melting pots, instead of something that is rationally constructed from the point of view of efficiency, but i think that all artificial human languages, if accepted by a population (which is another question whether it will), are subject to these "organifying" forces, which are partly caused by the way our brains are structured and partly by social forces.

Esperanto didn't really work either, btw. (i forgot why, it was mostly politics, that killed it afaik)

also, why do we need a phonetic alphabet? i have no problems spelling words in the English language, and i don't even need to think about it. you know why?
because i speak English fluently (as a second language), and the spelling and grammar of it are handled by a subconscious part of my brain specialized in handling large dictionaries and complex syntax trees, automatically. some parts of the language are not that much internalized, and for those i need to use my rational brain and consult some of the grammar/syntax rules i've learned in school (oddly enough, i need to do this more often for writing Dutch, my motherlanguage, than English), and doing this is way slower.

either way, both for Dutch or English, i don't believe that phonetic spelling would make things particularly easier.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on July 02, 2008, 02:45:44 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 02, 2008, 12:52:11 PM
I have no problem with a third gender pronoun per se....I just have problems with people who use ones they made up, or use them when the person in question is identifiably male or female and identifies themselves as such.  I'd like a standard term and convetion for its use, basically.

Same here. I seem to recall being ambivalent towards the use of e as a gender-neutral pronoun, until I read something where a known male subject was repeatedly referred to as 'e'. That bugged the shit out of me.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: LMNO on July 02, 2008, 04:14:14 PM
It seems to me that these people are just lazy.  There are plenty of ways to discribe a person without using a gender-ized pronoun.

They; That Person; My Sibling; Someone; Friend; Lover; Fuck Puppet; Spag.

I used to use s/he and hir, not as ways of describing transgendered*, but as a gender neutral way of saying "they".  I soon stopped because it was pointed out to me that doing so was kind of retarded.









*Incidentally, I believe that transgenderism exists; I know more than a few humans who strongly identify with the opposite gender than they were born into.  Drag queens are a different story, but I usually call them "she" because it's fun, and they get bitchy if you don't.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
sorry, i simply MUST argue this further. directed at group.

if you're clever enuf to understand all the rediculous combinations of letters and sounds in english you should be able to deal with people with different accents spelling out their own interpretations of words phonetically.

i say tomahto, you say tomayto. we can still understand each other even if we write this way. the only problem i can see is what to write in your precious dictionary, which is all online now so you can have as many spellings and interpretations as you can fit in cyberspace.. or your brains.

i think most languages evolved over a long period, and only after people who once spoke the same are seperated for many generations would their languages be significantly different. esperanto didn't work because it was invented, it didn't evolve.

so i realise that dictionaries and audio recording help keep our languages and accents from changing the way they might've before these things, but because of mass communication and cross-cultural mixing our languages and accents are changing now faster than ever in a way. these are the the strange times, ideas that pop from thin air can potentially be common themes in a matter of months.

and all the change-resistant people don't have to change, this can happen over a generation or two. we will teach children new ways, but they will still understand old way. srsly tho, why of all people would the DISCORDIANS be change-resistant?

the kids who are spraying graffiti and the cyberspace kids and the gansta kids are all constantly fucking with the language anyway. i see it as their language to fuck with as much as Collins' or whoever makes your dictionary. every generation makes up new shit that sticks. there are dictionaries of slang from many areas, as well as L33t, pig-latin, etc. language memes popping up and spreading everywhichwhere.

dere iz no roolz, u r free, if audients undrstand then LANGWITCH IS SUXESSFOOL.

surely this is the eristic side of the argument?
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Nast on July 23, 2008, 06:58:12 AM
Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
sorry, i simply MUST argue this further. directed at group.

if you're clever enuf to understand all the rediculous combinations of letters and sounds in english you should be able to deal with people with different accents spelling out their own interpretations of words phonetically.

It actually doesn't have to do anything with being clever. Language acquisition is a process of memorization and association, which take a lot of time. It takes most kids all of primary school to learn the ins and outs of the English language. Adults take even longer to learn. And with a completely ad hoc and disorganized system, it would take an impractically long time to learn how to interpret all of the various spellings and accents.

Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
i say tomahto, you say tomayto. we can still understand each other even if we write this way. the only problem i can see is what to write in your precious dictionary, which is all online now so you can have as many spellings and interpretations as you can fit in cyberspace.. or your brains.

TIs. Iz. @ "sEn.t@ns. "rI4.n: In. Eks.sE@m.p@ In. maj "daj.@.lEkt

^That's a sentence written X-Sampa. X-Sampa is a method of writing out sounds phonetically; a true phonetic alphabet. It was invented so that people can record the sounds that exist in various language. Humans can articulate far more sounds than those that exist just in the English language. The above sentence is also really hard to read, even if you know X-Sampa. This is because humans read based on the look of a word, not the sound of it. A pure phonetic alphabet causes the look of words to be completely fluid, and thus hard to interperet.

Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
i think most languages evolved over a long period, and only after people who once spoke the same are seperated for many generations would their languages be significantly different. esperanto didn't work because it was invented, it didn't evolve.

Esperanto didn't work because no one wants to learn a language that has practically no speakers. :p

Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
so i realise that dictionaries and audio recording help keep our languages and accents from changing the way they might've before these things, but because of mass communication and cross-cultural mixing our languages and accents are changing now faster than ever in a way. these are the the strange times, ideas that pop from thin air can potentially be common themes in a matter of months.

Languages change regardless of dictionaries or not. A major part of language shift is sound change. English experienced a massive sound change called the Great Vowel Shift, and it's a contributing factor as to why English spelling is so weird.

Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
and all the change-resistant people don't have to change, this can happen over a generation or two. we will teach children new ways, but they will still understand old way. srsly tho, why of all people would the DISCORDIANS be change-resistant?

Because just because we're Discordian, doesn't mean we have to support every idea that comes by.
People have a choice, you know.

Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
the kids who are spraying graffiti and the cyberspace kids and the gansta kids are all constantly fucking with the language anyway. i see it as their language to fuck with as much as Collins' or whoever makes your dictionary. every generation makes up new shit that sticks. there are dictionaries of slang from many areas, as well as L33t, pig-latin, etc. language memes popping up and spreading everywhichwhere.

Exactly, and those are all examples of language change! But it doesn't happen because someone sits down and plots out how they're going to change the course of language. It happens because of gradual shifts and pulls and tugs.

Quote from: bones on July 23, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
dere iz no roolz, u r free, if audients undrstand then LANGWITCH IS SUXESSFOOL.

Take it back to MySpace, plz.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Rumckle on July 23, 2008, 07:15:54 AM
Okay, firstly as you said dictionaries will be stuffed up, that would be a major problem. Even with online dictionaries, there would be a problem, because you would have, at least, 10 different ways of spelling the one word. So the entire thing would get extremely messy and take up way more space than needed, which in turn would cost people money.

Secondly, even with people using the same pronunciation when speaking, there are still several ways of writing the one word. If we take into account the different pronunciations, some words will have so many spellings it would be ridiculous.
And then on top of the differences of Tomayto and Tomahto, you have differences of where to place the emphasis on certain words.

Also, I'm sure people remember that internet thing, where it pretended that it didn't matter what order the letters of a word was in, as long as the last and first letters were in the right place. Now, I know that it is bullshit, but it has some truth, we don't always look at every letter in a word when reading, so such a system of phonetically spelling would just make reading more difficult, and harder.

Furthermore, misspellings would become a nightmare.

for instance, retyping your sentence:

dere is no roolx u r fere, if audients undrsatnd then langwoth is suxefssool

Plus add to that homonyms and the like, then you have no idea WTF you are reading.

Oh and let's not forget overly long scientific words.

Oh, and also, sometimes I may come across a word that I don't know the exact meaning of, but I can pretty understand because I consider the roots of that word, which would be fucking difficult under that system.

[/crazy rant]
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on July 23, 2008, 03:00:05 PM
This is why we must invent direct mind-to-mind telepathy.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cramulus on July 23, 2008, 03:30:10 PM
I'm conflicted on the gender pronoun issue.

My college professors instilled in my a cringe reaction whenever improper pronouns are used. They insisted that we write it out the full way every time:

"When the participant finished the test, he or she would put down his or her pencil and wait for the instructor."

It was cumbersome, and to get it to sound right, we had to engineer a lot of crazy sentences to avoid all the "his or her" hoopla. The professors strongly believed that using They or Their in those situations was innacurate (and would take points off). This isn't meant as an appeal to authority, but these people are very well educated on gender issues, so they're not shooting from ignorance.

This made it all the more complex to write on topics such as the intersexed or transgendered.


But aside from them, I've never heard much objection to using the plural to avoid improper usage. Its ubiquity is a sign that we are in the middle of linguistic evolution.

Quote from: http://wordminer.us/essays/the_generic_man.phpSomething else that is important to know is that a switch to “gender-neutral” language must take place despite, not in accordance with, most people’s preference. Giving both a male and a generic meaning to a single word is the way people like to talk. Take, for instance, the relatively modern slang word “guy.” Although its use became ubiquitous after women had been “liberated,” a “guy” is a male person, but the phrase “you guys” includes females. And while “he” has been replaced by “they” in some cases (e.g. “One of the neighbors drove their car last night.”), it still persists in others (e.g. “A fool and his money are soon parted.”), and repeated attempts to create a common-gender replacement pronoun have been futile.

these things aren't necessarily logical. The above cited blogger (that entry is a good read, BTW) also posits:

Quote...a transformation of English usage for solely ideological, not grammatical reasons is Orwellian. Let me explain. In his book 1984 George Orwell described a fictional totalitarian government that created a language called Newspeak in order to control the minds of its subjects. Newspeak was a modified form of English. It did not contain words like “liberty” or “independence,” and the ideas that pertained to freedom were obscured by equivocation and lack of proper vocabulary. What does this have to do with “gender-neutral” language? The modern movement against “sexist” language is the first widespread effort (that I am aware of) to change English usage habits for ideological purposes. Thought patterns, rather than speech patterns, are the target; and the momentum comes largely from a few large publishers, not from the general public (see how people like to use “sexist” language, above). Accomplishing the transformation will have one of two effects. If language can heavily influence thought, then a gender switch will bring the populace closer to feminism simply by reading their grammar books. But if (as many linguists hold) thought is independent of language, the whole shift is a charade and a colossal waste of time and effort. Either way, the general public loses.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on July 23, 2008, 04:18:46 PM
The OP is EXCELLENT!!!

The he/she/it derail is funny.  I have no issue with the basic he, mankind etc.  I think all this crap that it belittles women is just that CRAP.  It just seems to make life more difficult over something so very unimportant.  I do not feel less of a woman just because I am a part of 'mankind'. 

There are so many statements and such that can be taken "the wrong" way.  Hey guys...  then these idiot chicks get all bent with I'm not a guy.  Oh fucking please just STFU and let the man finish his talk. 

There are so many more important things to take a stand on yanno?
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: LMNO on July 23, 2008, 04:21:13 PM
"Hey guys... Bitches ain't shit, amirite!?"
   \
:mullet:


Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on July 23, 2008, 08:43:35 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 23, 2008, 03:30:10 PM

"When the participant finished the test, he or she would put down his or her pencil and wait for the instructor."


Actually the correct sentence is:  "When the participant finished the test, he would put down his pencil and wait for the instructor."

Efficient, no?
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cramulus on July 23, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
BUT WHAT IF THE PARTICIPANT WAS A GRRRRL?


seriously, I would have lost points if I didn't say "his or her" and "he or she"
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 23, 2008, 08:57:43 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 23, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
BUT WHAT IF THE PARTICIPANT WAS A GRRRRL?


seriously, I would have lost points if I didn't say "his or her" and "he or she"

OH SO YOU DID WHAT THEY TOLD YOU TOO?????

:lulz:  :wink:
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Rumckle on July 24, 2008, 03:36:25 AM
I like the point about trying to remove "sexist" pronouns as Orwellian, I hadn't thought of that before. It is Plus-Good.

Also, I use guy as a gender free pronoun in its singular anyway.

If feminists didn't spend so much time on pointless grammar changing the glass ceiling probably would be gone by now.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Kai on July 24, 2008, 04:29:28 PM
I go by they, or sie/hir, actually....


Kai,

Is trying not to spread drama by this though.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on July 24, 2008, 04:55:05 PM
Quote from: Kai on July 24, 2008, 04:29:28 PM
I go by they, or sie/hir, actually....


Kai,

Is trying not to spread drama by this though.

I find these to be perfectly reasonable. Especially sie, because it's an actual German pronoun.

I like them much better than the "E" nonsense, which spags from across the internet have abused by using "e" when the subject is of a known gender. Also, in my mind it's just a heavily accented way of saying "he".
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on July 24, 2008, 05:39:05 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on July 23, 2008, 08:43:35 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 23, 2008, 03:30:10 PM

"When the participant finished the test, he or she would put down his or her pencil and wait for the instructor."


Actually the correct sentence is:  "When the participant finished the test, he would put down his pencil and wait for the instructor."

Efficient, no?

yes!!!

Why re-write the language, it ain't broke, no need to fix it!

Those teachers who require all this newfangled mangling of the language should just stfu.  Where y'all would lose points for not using he or she, I would have lost points for adding unnecessary words...
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on July 24, 2008, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: Rumckle on July 24, 2008, 03:36:25 AM
I like the point about trying to remove "sexist" pronouns as Orwellian, I hadn't thought of that before. It is Plus-Good.

Also, I use guy as a gender free pronoun in its singular anyway.

If feminists didn't spend so much time on pointless grammar changing the glass ceiling probably would be gone by now.

DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT HERSTORY?!!!
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on July 24, 2008, 09:37:44 PM
it used to be that when addressing a gender-unknown, you would simply use "he" and variations of it.

"his or her" is, in my opinion, just results from a bunch of whiny "but what about meeee" crap. it's a fucking pronoun. fight for wages and equality - is a pronoun really that important?

"zie/zhyr/sie/'j'/zis/etc" - not be an asshole, but... come the fuck on. i'm sorry that our language has evolved over thousands of years with certain cultural assumptions. but is fighting about a fucking pronoun really what you want to be using your energy on? if so, it's a free country (for now) so more power to you. just don't complain to me when you're blue in the face and official forms still don't have a option under gender for "other." at some point, you're going to have to accept who you are and accept that other people don't necessarily see it that way.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 24, 2008, 09:43:02 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on July 24, 2008, 09:37:44 PM
it used to be that when addressing a gender-unknown, you would simply use "he" and variations of it.

"his or her" is, in my opinion, just results from a bunch of whiny "but what about meeee" crap. it's a fucking pronoun. fight for wages and equality - is a pronoun really that important?

"zie/zhyr/sie/'j'/zis/etc" - not be an asshole, but... come the fuck on. i'm sorry that our language has evolved over thousands of years with certain cultural assumptions. but is fighting about a fucking pronoun really what you want to be using your energy on? if so, it's a free country (for now) so more power to you. just don't complain to me when you're blue in the face and official forms still don't have a option under gender for "other." at some point, you're going to have to accept who you are and accept that other people don't necessarily see it that way.


:mittens:
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Rumckle on July 25, 2008, 03:59:55 AM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on July 24, 2008, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: Rumckle on July 24, 2008, 03:36:25 AM
I like the point about trying to remove "sexist" pronouns as Orwellian, I hadn't thought of that before. It is Plus-Good.

Also, I use guy as a gender free pronoun in its singular anyway.

If feminists didn't spend so much time on pointless grammar changing the glass ceiling probably would be gone by now.

DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT HERSTORY?!!!

No, because she's a shit writer.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on July 25, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Cainad, "sie" in German is either "she" or "they"... It would confuse the fuck out of German speakers to use it as gender-neutral-third-singular, and it doesn't actually make any sense. oO

Also, my conference starts today, so I'm AWOL, BAI EVERYONE.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on July 25, 2008, 11:15:41 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on July 25, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Cainad, "sie" in German is either "she" or "they"... It would confuse the fuck out of German speakers to use it as gender-neutral-third-singular, and it doesn't actually make any sense. oO

I know, but it sounds better in my tiny American mind.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on July 27, 2008, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: Rumckle on July 25, 2008, 03:59:55 AM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on July 24, 2008, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: Rumckle on July 24, 2008, 03:36:25 AM
I like the point about trying to remove "sexist" pronouns as Orwellian, I hadn't thought of that before. It is Plus-Good.

Also, I use guy as a gender free pronoun in its singular anyway.

If feminists didn't spend so much time on pointless grammar changing the glass ceiling probably would be gone by now.

DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT HERSTORY?!!!

No, because she's a shit writer.

:mittens:
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 27, 2008, 10:26:13 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 28, 2008, 01:51:28 AM
I used to tell people we live in an Anarchist Utopia. It was a kind of IRL troll in the days I used to hang out with activist-types. It was a lot of fun, because it is a very difficult claim difficult to argue against: we are all free to do as we will. You can smoke a joint in front of a police station - you just have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. You can do anything you can get away with.

It is very easy to confuse what we can't do with what we shouldn't do. It is all too easy to forget that we have the choice. The internet pirate, downloading and propogating stolen materials, he has the choice. And stopping at a red light, I had the choice to keep going and risk arrest or injury.

Freedom, in this its most basic sense, seems rather constant in human history across space and time. The only way people have managed to truly limit freedom in this sense is imprisonment of others - and this has always been applied to a small minority, even in extreme cases where entire ethnic groups were rounded up and confined.

So if we sense we are in a state of decreasing freedom, clearly the freedom we are referring to is not this freedom of choice, ever so hard to truly limit. The freedoms now being slowly taken away must be subtler ones - indeed, these freedoms must consist of our choices not being affected unduly by outside considerations. I should be able to write what I want, when I want, where I want, without this choice being affected by fear of retribution. Imposing this fear is a subtle encroachment upon my freedom.

But perhaps the easiest way to limit one's freedom is to make one forget this freedom ever existed in the first place. After all, why put a man behind iron bars when you can just train him to stay indoors? If you can convince The People that they should not do what you do not wish them to do, you save a great deal of energy you would otherwise spend actually stopping them from doing it. If you can convince them that they cannot do this, cannot go there, all the better.

It is good to remember once in a while that we are fundamentally free. We may have fears imposed on us by unjust rulers. We may have to face choices no free person should be forced to face. We may have to take great care to preserve our freedom. But we are free nonetheless, and the choice is ours. Merely knowing we are free is half the battle.

Shit yeah.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on August 03, 2008, 06:09:42 AM
St. Verbatim: It took me a while to get it up (where's my Viagra?), but I just posted "Knowing we are Free" on our site.  For those who don't know, Verbatim gave me permission.  It's at (WARNING: LINK COMING!) http://discordia.Uncle BadTouch.org/xtra/wearefree.html (http://discordia.uncle%20badtouch.org/xtra/wearefree.html)

By the way, I don't know if this piece is copyrighted or not--please let me know so I can put the appropriate notice on the page.

As to the discussion here, careful, people.  If you have too many thoughtful, intelligent discussions like this (or at least most of this, which I loved reading, by the way), other people might get the idea you're more than just a single-minded group of hateful, loud nasty flamers.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Nast on August 03, 2008, 06:23:10 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on August 03, 2008, 06:09:42 AM
other people might get the idea you're more than just a single-minded group of hateful, loud nasty flamers.

LOL WE ALREADY ARE!
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on August 04, 2008, 03:21:17 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on August 03, 2008, 06:09:42 AM
As to the discussion here, careful, people.  If you have too many thoughtful, intelligent discussions like this (or at least most of this, which I loved reading, by the way), other people might get the idea you're more than just a single-minded group of hateful, loud nasty flamers.

You know Rev, you really come across like an insightful dude. We really don't take enough time around here to give you the credit you deserve.

So....oh, wow, I'm sorry if I'm a little awkward in asking this. I don't want to be too forward, but...

can I watch you, umm, well... jack off some time?

I mean, I'm totally cool with it if you don't want to, cuz it's kinda queer, but I really feel like it would be a real bonding experience. Really, I just can't get enough of seeing you bring yourself pleasure. It's a thing of beauty, and seeing someone of such intelligence and grace is truly it's own reward.



(and I'd feel like a douche if I didn't point out the obvious sarcasm there, lest you get the wrong idea. I wouldn't want to add to the "perving on 16 year old girls" whatnot without giving you a fair warning.)
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Requia ☣ on August 04, 2008, 04:47:33 AM
You know Rev, you're kinda ruining it for the parts of the forum that don't hate your guts.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on August 04, 2008, 12:49:53 PM
Quote from: Requiem on August 04, 2008, 04:47:33 AM
You know Rev, you're kinda ruining it for the parts of the forum that don't hate your guts.

I didn't intend to.  I meant that as a quite sincere, if tongue in cheek compliment to those who contributed to what I found a fascinating discussion.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on August 04, 2008, 12:54:25 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch on August 04, 2008, 03:21:17 AM

You know Rev, you really come across like an insightful dude. We really don't take enough time around here to give you the credit you deserve.

So....oh, wow, I'm sorry if I'm a little awkward in asking this. I don't want to be too forward, but...

can I watch you, umm, well... jack off some time?

I mean, I'm totally cool with it if you don't want to, cuz it's kinda queer, but I really feel like it would be a real bonding experience. Really, I just can't get enough of seeing you bring yourself pleasure. It's a thing of beauty, and seeing someone of such intelligence and grace is truly it's own reward....

Thank you for your kind words and your interest.  This is the type of inquiry I often receive on my own website, where I am the King of Everything and everybody loves and worships me.

Because I am asked this question so frequently, my agents have scheduled a showing.  If you are interested in attending a public performance, you can get tickets to "Reverend Uncle BadTouch's 537 Ways of Self-Pleasuring," which is scheduled to go on an international tour in spring of 2009.  Stops on our tour include Carnegie Hall in New York City, America; the National Centre for the Performing Arts in Beijing, China; the Kyoto Kaikan in Kyoto, Japan; the National Theatre of Korea in Seoul, South Korea; and the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées in Paris, France.  Tickets will be available exclusively through Ticket Master beginning August 23 of this year.

If you were hoping for free tickets, please submit 250 words on the topic, "Why I want to see Reverend Uncle BadTouch self-pleasuring."  Your entry will be entered in our contest with the winner announced on August 22.  There is no entry fee, but the winner does agree to pay all applicable taxes.

Thank you once again for your interest, and Have a Nice Day.

Yours Sincerely,

Reverend "tongue planted firmly in cheeky" Uncle BadTouch
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on August 04, 2008, 01:49:48 PM
Jesus fucking christ, you're still posting here?  :argh!:
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on August 04, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
Dear Uncle BadTouch

You are not, and never will be, funny.

Kill yourself.

Thanks in Advance,
RBoG
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 05, 2008, 05:50:34 AM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on August 04, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
Dear Uncle BadTouch

You are not, and never will be, funny.

Kill yourself.

Thanks in Advance,
RBoG

+1.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on August 05, 2008, 11:39:30 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on August 04, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
Dear Uncle BadTouch

You are not, and never will be, funny.

Kill yourself.

Thanks in Advance,
RBoG

You mean you thought that was supposed to be funny?
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on August 05, 2008, 11:59:14 PM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on August 05, 2008, 11:39:30 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on August 04, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
Dear Uncle BadTouch

You are not, and never will be, funny.

Kill yourself.

Thanks in Advance,
RBoG

You mean you thought that was supposed to be funny?

Oh wow, that's a pretty nifty little social experiment there.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: fomenter on August 06, 2008, 12:29:34 AM
Is there a barbeque going on i didn't hear about?      I think i smell the assburgers burning
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 06, 2008, 12:47:51 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on August 05, 2008, 11:39:30 PM
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on August 04, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
Dear Uncle BadTouch

You are not, and never will be, funny.

Kill yourself.

Thanks in Advance,
RBoG

You mean you thought that was supposed to be funny?

It doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Knowing we are Free
Post by: Verbal Mike on August 12, 2008, 03:43:17 PM
It's Kopyleft.
And I'm back.
With a new nick.
Ha.