I've spent a couple of hours looking up chaos magic, and from what i've read it looks like occult discordianism. Just wondering if anyone had anything to say about it. it looks pretty cool.
it's only cool if you want to go insane or forget who you are(or yoruself entirely) otherwise it's agreat way meet women...
of course that's the real chaos magic. not that yuppy shit where tehy're always like "jsut do what's good for you at the moment" they confuse met-programming and concious behavioural change with narcisism(er however that's spelt), self indulgence, and decadence.
the most well known chaos magician, aliester crwoley, convinced hismelf that he was rich powerful, important and famous. he died poor, a slave to heroin, infamous(or unknown) and largely forgotten, and worst of totally misunderstood.
Quote from: horab fibslagerit's only cool if you want to go insane or forget who you are(or yoruself entirely) otherwise it's agreat way meet women...
of course that's the real chaos magic. not that yuppy shit where tehy're always like "jsut do what's good for you at the moment" they confuse met-programming and concious behavioural change with narcisism(er however that's spelt), self indulgence, and decadence.
interesting, i had thought that the 'yuppie shit' that i was reading was 'real' chaos magic, and that crowley was a different kind of occultism altogether.
well alot of crowley is a different sorta occultism altogether, that's what i meant by dying misunderstood.
no one ever got the secret message.
cahos magic is essentially concious behavioural change. it's doen everyday in teh offices of psycho-therapists and drug rehab centers.
basically it is changing one's own attitudes, thought processes, habits, et al, conciously.
leary wrote some good material on it, but was also a victim of it, as are msot futurist writers(the RAW's and whatnot)(tho the futrusits go off in different tangent at soem point and become media machines and slaves to the method).
take for intance the follwoing:
a young man who is froma middle class neighborhood looks at all the black kids from teh hood who are the cool kids. they get all teh honey's and everyone wants to be liek them. so does he. he adapts their method of dress, method of speech, habits, behaviours. it's a concious change.
he is no longer who he once was, he is a shell of what the kids he wants to be like.
that's a perfect example of proper chaos magic.
the yuppified version, often propagated by the above mentioned futurists, new age nuts and wiccans is to cghange your attitudes and beliefs and behaviours to suit the moment(tho i'm wording that badly)
example: if one day you feel like you don't want to be married any more , you get a divorce. you decide you like being married the next day, you find new partner. you don't like your job of 10 years? quit it a find a new vocation. don;t like the way you look? get plastic surgery and lok like someone else.
basically it's gratifying the base needs, the most current whim.
there's mroe to it than that, and i'm arguing rather oen sidedly against it's use. in reality it's something used everyday, all the time, often with positive results.
do you have a link?
I see chaos magic as a system of meta-magic, which allows you to create your own magical system, stealing from all sorts of occult systems. Reprogramming of the mind is a part of it.
Insanity is always a great risk, so don't do it if you fear for your sanity (but sanity is overrated, anyway).
I thought these links might be of interest ...
Chaos magic (Wikipedia) (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic)
Chaos Magic (Sacred Text Archives) (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/chaos/)
Principia Chaotica by Peter Carroll (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/chaos/princhao.txt)
So if you have already left behind a great portion of your sanity and are just waiting for the rest to follow, then there is nothing to worry about? Cool. Time to see if I can summon up a 40ft tall talking purple lemur.
thanks for the links evilpoet. i had been to the first one but the other two links have some cool stuff.
Quote from: Slarti is Deadthanks for the links evilpoet. i had been to the first one but the other two links have some cool stuff.
You're very welcome - enjoy! :D
Here's a book on the subject, as well, Slarti:
"Condensed Chaos - an introduction to chaos magic"
By Phil Hine
It has a forward by Peter Carroll, and offers a very basic, beginning course in chaos magic.
I¥m suprised the Karma Manager hasn¥t posted on here. Chaos magik is right up his alley. In fact, if the DIA had anything resembling an official chaos magician, then he would be it.
If I have ever used chaos magik, it has been entirely by coincidence.
The Commander
DIA
I get tired of people slamming Aleister Crowley without investigating his magical systems. Yeah, he died a slave to heroin? Are you sure? He was thoroughly discredited by society at large, and by the nascent Neo-Pagan movement he had a great hand in starting.
As to Chaos Magic being basically about having one's base needs fulfilled: I have to take issue with that. Chaos Magic is about looking at the multiverse with an agnostic 'devil-may-care' attitude. It is about not having to rely on dogmatic occult systems. It is about designing your own fluid way of practicing magic. A lot of occult systems are, frankly, bullshit. They hype up all their knowledge in pedantic obscurities designed to obfuscate the issue of practical magic in this realm. Chaos Magicians don't have to rely on mysticism to obscure the minds of skeptics who inquire about magic's practicality. They say, try it for yourself. If you have base needs, then what the hell is wrong with fulfilling them? That whole ideal about sacrificing and 'doing-without' only makes sense to those who have some wealth they feel guilty in having.
Chaos Magic is also about learning which masks you are (person is a word from Latin which means 'mask') and then having the creativity to change the masks. It is about using beliefs to attain results, but not becoming a follower of the beliefs. It is about being able to shift paradigms as readily as one changes clothes. It is about insanity as an option. All those tales and examples about Chaos Magic trapping people into becoming caricatures is only so-much fear based bullshit. You would find, upon investigating practitioners of Chaos Magic, the most well adjusted and well rounded healthy people.
Are you willing to learn exactly what "Nothing is True...Everything is Permissable" really means on this day-to-day Earth? Chaos Magic may have something to offer you in that quest. Do you want to develop a magical practice that gets you results every time (and why cast a spell if you are not sure it will work?)? Chaos Magic can lead you to creating such a system for yourself. It is hard work...much like studying and playing music. So if you don't have self-discipline, buy a spell book from Borders and make due.
Also, please don't knock Crowley. He gave us post-modern Westerners the foundations of how we approach the occult today. Everyone is so quick to say crap about him, but how many of the CrapScreamers have really explored his systems?
A good start is the book Bella recommended and also the same author's book called "Prime Chaos". Also check out
http://www.chaosmagic.com/
BTW- I practice Chaos Magic, but I am also part of the Celtic Pagan Reconstruction movement...so I guess that makes me a double sinister, eh?
Although I am not fan of Aleister Crowley, I do recongnize the
contribution he made to western magic. That said - I thought
this might be of interest ...
QuoteCrowley began his path of magical enlightenment by joining The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Led by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers other members included such notables such as William Butler Yeats, Maud Gonne, Constance Wilde, (the wife of Oscar Wilde), Arthur Machen, Moina Bergson, Arthur Edward Waite, Florence Farr, Algernon Blackwood and possibly, though records for their membership are shaky, Sax Rohmer and Bram Stoker.
The Golden Dawn's contribution to the Western Magical Tradition is definitely worth noting, because it was their synthesis of the Kabbalah, alchemy, tarot, astrology, divination, numerology, Masonic symbolism, and ritual magic into one coherent and logical system which led them to influence countless occult organizations to come. Mathers adapted the system of magic outlined by Eliphas Levi, and through Levi, the spiritual ancestry of the Golden Dawn was traced to the Rosicrucian Brotherhood and from there, through the Kabbalah to Ancient Egypt. Mathers' authority was held in part by his link to the "Secret Chiefs", the "true leaders" of the Order, with whom Mathers could communicate with only through metaphysical means.
Adopting the magical name Frater 'Perdurabo', Latin for "I Will Endure", Crowley advanced quickly through the ranks of the Golden Dawn, initially studying under Alan Bennett, who was Mathers' spiritual heir. Bennett left England in 1899 for health reasons, moving to Ceylon, what it now Sri Lanka, where he joined a buddhist monastery. Unfortunately, Crowley, left to his own devices, managed to severely fragment the order through sheer force of personality. In 1900, he completed the studies necessary in order to obtain the rank of Adeptus Minor, however the London controllers of the Order, disapproving of Crowley's homosexual dabblings, refused to advance him. Crowley travelled to Paris, where Mathers himself performed the ceremony, which only served to further outrage the London members.
The ensuing uproar caused several of the London members to resign, and Mathers was eventually expelled from the Order, specifically on the grounds that he had put its authority into jeopardy by revealing his suspicions that the founding documents linking them to an older occult order in Germany had been forged by another member (which they had been). Crowley attempted to obtain possession of the Order's property on behalf of Mathers, interrupting one of their rituals in full Highland regalia, wearing a black hood. As with any serious dispute between occultists, astral attacks ensued. Crowley reported that the rebels directed hostile magic against him as evidenced by the fact that his rubber raincoat burst spontaneously into flames and he found himself in a "furious temper" for no reason, so extreme that horses ran away in fear at the sight of him. In the end, however, it was the police who resolved the matter.
Crowley was expelled from the Golden Dawn, only 2 years after joining, chiefly through the efforts of William Butler Yeats, who reportedly did not approve of Crowley's magical methods.
Continued here: The Biography Project: Aleister Crowley (http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_project/aleister_crowley.html)
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomHere's a book on the subject, as well, Slarti:
"Condensed Chaos - an introduction to chaos magic"
By Phil Hine
It has a forward by Peter Carroll, and offers a very basic, beginning course in chaos magic.
thanks bella, i had heard of that book and i have to order it from borders. stupid book store never has anything in stock. And Hugh, that's good summary of chaos magic
k right there.
I'll look into crowley too. What kind of stuff did crowley do? i had always thought that he was into the more dogmatic-witchcraft type stuff, not the paradigmal shifting of choas magic. (correct me if i'm wrong though)
Well, as evidenced in the excerpt above provided by EvilPoet, Crowley was a controversial figure who seemed bent on reinforcing every inflated thing people said about him. That said, he didn't do any dogmatic witchcraft stuff, although some hint that he probably helped Gerald Garner write rituals for Wicca. Crowley basically took a look at the Golden Dawn system, at that time the most complex occult system ever created, and pronounced most of its followers as pigheaded effete armchair mages. Crowley was into making magic with results. Beyond this, it is hard to spell out in a brief statement what he was about. He had many masks and played them so effectively, it might be said that he was several egos at once. His "Book of Lies" is a good start...but you must have a sense of humor when reading it, otherwise it makes no sense. I suggest you search online or go to a bookstore which carries Crowley's work and skim through some of his stuff. His prose is a bit dry but his rituals are fun.
Crowley was a living paradigm shifter, he just had problems dealing with the fact that he lived in society. But his work is worth looking into. His main tenets were "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, Love under Will." And "Every Man and Every Woman is a Star."
Quote from: The CommanderI¥m suprised the Karma Manager hasn¥t posted on here. Chaos magik is right up his alley. In fact, if the DIA had anything resembling an official chaos magician, then he would be it.
I haven't been reading the boards -- too much schoolwork. But I got a couple hours to kill before class right now.
But yeah, I've played with it a bit. Enough to see that it's not all headology and new-agey bullshit -- there's definately something real there, that someone who was willing to put
a lot of time and effort into it could really take advantage of.
I'm not that guy.
I did turn myself invisible once, though.
The Phil Hine book is good... can't find my copy, but he was on the e-mail discussion list I chatted on back in the day, and he knows his stuff.
Also
Liber Null & Psychonaut by Peter Carroll (anything by Pete Carroll, really) and
Visual Magick by Jan Fries.
To put the whole deal in a nutshell: You don't believe in magic. Even if you
think you do, you
don't. You're conditioned by society and everyday life not to. When you try to do magic, your subconscious mind fucks it up, because it "knows" that such things are "impossible". (Parenthetical Aside: This is why all the cloaks and incense and Magick Runic Blades and incantations and whatnot, because the props make it seem a little more real. The people who are
really good don't need them.)
So, Chaos Magick is twofold: firstly, doing spells in such a way that your unconscious mind can't fuck them up, generally with 'fire-and-forget' sigils. And secondly: training yourself to be able to believe,
really believe, in whatever it is necessary for you to believe at any given time, and to be able to change those beliefs as needed. This is the bit that, if done badly, will make you insane, particularly if done in conjunction with the heavy usage of psychotropic drugs.
Try wandering around http://www.chaosmatrix.org/ for a while. Lots of info there, and the manager, Fenwick, is another guy from the old list that knows his stuff.
The old slogan is "fake it 'till you make it", which really means "fake it 'till you
think you can make it, then
keep faking it 'till you
really can make it, which will take much
much longer." Practice makes perfect, and laughter helps keep you sane.
"Chaos contains within itself the four elements of all that is, viz., fire, air, water, and earth, by the mixture and motion of which the forms of all earthly things are impressed upon their subjects. These elements have four qualities: heat, coldness, humidity, dryness. The first inheres in fire, the second in water, the third in air, the fourth in earth. By means of these qualities, the elements act upon each other, and motion takes place. " -Edward Kelly's The Stone of the Philosophers
i'm trying to get Liver Null & Psychonaut as well as Condensed Chaos, but i'm gonna have to order them -> none of the books stores in my area have them in stock.
Can you replace the incence and candels and stuff with forms? I think it would be hilarious to fill out a Chaos Magik acquistion form everytime you performed a spell.
The Commander
DIA
Don't see why not, if you can believe in the form hard enough. :)
Quote from: The CommanderCan you replace the incence and candels and stuff with forms? I think it would be hilarious to fill out a Chaos Magik acquistion form everytime you performed a spell.
The Commander
DIA
Riff is correct: You can replace anything with anything else as long as you believe it's going to work. The candles and incense are just bells and whistles to help focus energy and intent, which in my opinion, is all magick is.
Chaos Magick Acquisition forms coming up.
I've already started using forms as a form of magic.
Why not? Greyface has been using forms for years.
Quote from: SMFabalI've already started using forms as a form of magic.
Do you make your own forms?
Because this idea is really interesting to me. It even sounds right.....'forms as forms of magick'.
Could be interesting... tick a few checkboxes, scribble a sigil in the indicated box (blood or #2 pencil only please!) and mail it off in triplicate to three people picked at random from the phone book...
Man, you guys make my fingers itch. I don't have time to be getting back into this stuff right now. :?
Hmmm... What do you say to an HTML Magic Form?
By Jove, I'll do it ...
...someday
I was reading about technomages somewhere on occultforums.com , and it seems interesting- computer programming replacing whatever wiccans do. i'm uneducated towards wiccanism.
actually, it was kind of funny, when i was like 9-12 years old, i wanted a sense of belonging so i was experimenting with different 'religions'.
the first thing i did was be a jedi (that was so funny). my close friend and I started a jedi council and did strict training exercises every day, and tried to meditate and harness the power of the force and stuff.
then, after watching the movie 'scooby doo and the witch's ghost' i decided i wanted to be a wiccan (LOL) so i bought tarot cards and runes and i sat outside trying to write symbols in the dirt to cast spells, and then i finally got the internet and i started looking it up and trying to find spells that didn't require complex setup (i was lazy)... i even had a samhain party with a some trees (i'm serious) in my backyard that i was trying to communicate with well eventually my parents started checking my history, so i was yelled at for looking at occult websites.
and now i'm a closet discordian (only 5 or 6 people at my school know) training in chaos magick. in retrospect, it's interesting that i tried jediism and wicca (even though looking back it's not even remotely close to what wicca is...) at an early age... FNORD
The great/weird/interesting thing about Chaos Magick is, once you get a handle on it, you can go back and use all those 'religions' to actual effect. Call on your Jedi powers (granted, not as overtly as in the movies). Scratch your runes in the dirt. Anything! In fact, I once performed a minor curse by using a penknife to scratch 'fuck you' in runic on a bit of tree bark, and throwing it at a kid I disliked. He got an extreme ice cream headache about five minutes later.
Basically, any concept you can throw together, if you've got the belief and willpower to back it up, it might work. And if not, hell, try something different. Want to try a death spell, but Anubis isn't answering your invocations? Try Neil Gaiman's cute goth-girl version of Death instead -- Anubis wishes he had as many worshippers as she does, these days. Maybe take George Carlin's advice and pray to Joe Pesci... who knows?
Quote from: RiffThe great/weird/interesting thing about Chaos Magick is, once you get a handle on it, you can go back and use all those 'religions' to actual effect. Call on your Jedi powers (granted, not as overtly as in the movies). Scratch your runes in the dirt. Anything! In fact, I once performed a minor curse by using a penknife to scratch 'fuck you' in runic on a bit of tree bark, and throwing it at a kid I disliked. He got an extreme ice cream headache about five minutes later.
Basically, any concept you can throw together, if you've got the belief and willpower to back it up, it might work. And if not, hell, try something different. Want to try a death spell, but Anubis isn't answering your invocations? Try Neil Gaiman's cute goth-girl version of Death instead -- Anubis wishes he had as many worshippers as she does, these days. Maybe take George Carlin's advice and pray to Joe Pesci... who knows?
Heh heh... I just LOVE Neil Gaiman!
I'm still wondering what to use for a love spell...
Quote from: Lord_CaramacI'm still wondering what to use for a love spell...
Well, a large amount of chocolate should definately be part of the mix. Stirs up the endorphins or whatever. Anything else you associate with love? Roses? That fat little bastard with the bow and arrow?
Oi Commander, are there any love spells in the Player's Handbook? Ya never know...
oh i;ve got a choclate spell, frist thing you need is a rather long pole, and a string, tie the stringto the pole, then tie a piece of chocolate to the other end of the string coming up from behind, dangle the chocolate in fornt of the girl/guy's/frog's face. now if it's a girl they're turn around and either jump on you liek a pack of hyenes on a pile of chicken wings left myseteriously in the middle of the veldt, or they'll slap you eat the chocolate, and then give you a nice smile. if it's a guy, i'm not sure what he'll do cuz i never tried that, and frog's, welli 'm not really sure f tehy like chocolate...
a better wat may be to use large amounts of alcohol. in retrospect, i'm gonna recomend the alcohol.
Present the lady in question with a single red rose. It's always worked for me ...
Spell for ferocious beatings:
components: 1 cop, 1 steel toed boot.
Casting: Put on boot, stomp on cops foot. This spell, unlike many others, has a VERIFIABLE, CONSISTENT result, which occurs about 3 seconds (every time) after you stomp the poor cops foot.
USEFUL HINTS: Wear a helmet.
Well, I'm unable to drop the idea of forms for spells.
Guess it's time to conjure some up.
So if anyone has anything you want to contribute in the way of ideas....please let me know.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerCasting: Put on boot, stomp on cops foot.
I have found that the spell is more powerful if you kick the cop in the shins or if you kick a multitude of cops. There are rumours that the higher up you can kick the cop, the more powerful the spell gets but I have never had a circle of protection strong enough to be game to try it myself.
Quote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerCasting: Put on boot, stomp on cops foot.
I have found that the spell is more powerful if you kick the cop in the shins or if you kick a multitude of cops. There are rumours that the higher up you can kick the cop, the more powerful the spell gets but I have never had a circle of protection strong enough to be game to try it myself.
I rather suspect those rumors are correct.
ANOTHER GOOD SPELL: Instant audit.
Components: Access to email.
Casting: Write you congressman, and tell him that he's a pig-fucker. Use your real email address. For faster, better results, also write the IRS, and tell them that they are ALL pig-fuckers.
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomWell, I'm unable to drop the idea of forms for spells.
Guess it's time to conjure some up.
So if anyone has anything you want to contribute in the way of ideas....please let me know.
I think military related government forms would be the most amusing. I might have a copy of my discharge papers somewhere laying around. Let me rephrase that...I BETTER have a copy of my discharge papers laying around. When I get back to the states I¥ll dig around and find them. I could scan them and send them to you. Then again, I bet you could find any number of forms available on the internet.
somewhere...
The Commander
DIA
spell for time travel(or at least for warping time...)
Narrator:
It's just a jump to the left.
All:
And then a step to the right.
Narrator:
With your hands on your hips.
All:
You bring your knees in tight.
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane.
Let's do the time-warp again.
Let's do the time-warp again.
Quote from: horab fibslager plusspell for time travel(or at least for warping time...)
Spell for time travel:
One tequila,
Two tequila,
Three tequila,
FLOOR!
When you wake up, HOURS will have passed...DAYS, if you really try.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: horab fibslager plusspell for time travel(or at least for warping time...)
Spell for time travel:
One tequila,
Two tequila,
Three tequila,
FLOOR!
When you wake up, HOURS will have passed...DAYS, if you really try.
You reckon this would work with margaritas?
Only one way to find out. :twisted:
Currently I'm thinking about making some German NPIAB forms for ritual use...
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerFor faster, better results, also write the IRS, and tell them that they are ALL pig-fuckers.
Quote from: The American Heretic's DictionaryINTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE, n. A government agency which serves the people by extorting hundreds of billions of dollars from them annually under threat of force.
Spell for RoadKill
Choose any busy pre-rush-hour expressway (note: the spell's magical correspondences are such that the strongest time is pre-rush-hour)
Run across the expressway.
Ignore the screeching and honking sounds.
Road Kill will certaintly manifest within twenty seconds into the ritual.
well in any case, Chaos Magic looks really cool. I'm gonna experiment and try some stuff, and see how it works out.
i found this semi-relavant joke on chaosmatrix.com
A Christian, a Wiccan, and a Sorceror were taking a whizz in a public restroom. The Christian finished first, and proceeded to scrub his hands thoroughly, to the elbow, saying, "We Christians have learned to be clean." The Wiccan finished next, and barely wet his fingertips, saying, "We Wiccans have learned to respect Mother Earth and preserve her resources." The Sorceror zipped up and headed for the door, saying, "We Sorcerors have learned not to piss on our hands."
(No offense to wiccans or christians)
I heard the joke as a Sailor and a Marine; anyway, I'm not offended.
okay that's good.
i thought alister crowley left the golden dawn to start the o.t.o.
he died in hastings were i live. he apparently left a curse on the town, which says that no one in hastings can leave past the age of 23. if you try you just keep coming back.ARRGGHH, im 23... bollocks.
if chaos magic had rules it would be called system magick. therefore the mere thought of something symbolises a spell/incantation. if you start hearing rules for chaos magick, then its a different form of magick. ive never known anyone to go insane from it. although i once fell over when i was really angry at myself. meta-programming is meta-programming i.e if you brush your teeth with your right hand, it will be hard to brush your teeth with your left. but if you brush your teeth with the left hand everyday for 30 days it becomes a habit and therefore you will find it hard to brush your teeth with your right hand.etc,etc. therefore it is not chaos because there is a rule. i go on dont i, anyway read a bit of colin wilsons occult he actually met AC and watched him perform magick. he is also one of the most highly regarded writers on magick and the occult
This is a really good point. Chaos means no set patterns.
I once made an attempt to document the spells I used....write them all down...write down the visible results, if any. But it proved to be counterproductive, as what worked one time didn't work the next. Now I just go with the flow and each piece of magick is different.
exactly. forgot the point i was trying to make. im sure it will come back to me. like a bee on an elastic band.
Maybe you weren't making an actual point....maybe I only thought I saw one, which is how chaos works, isn't it? A bee on an elastic band......what a good description of chaos magick.
never pings back the same way twice.
Which is the beauty of the whole thing. Never the same twice makes it much more interesting and powerful.
fate is a three eyed ninja and that's all there is to it.
mu
GIRLS PANTS!!!!
sorry,sorry i cant not yell that sometimes
fate?
Crowley didn't start the OTO. It was already in existence. He injected it with Thelema. Bad, Aleister, bad. Stop injecting pseudomasonic organizations with your creepy religion, it's not polite.
What does OTO stand for? i
Quote from: SlartibartfastWhat does OTO stand for? i
Ordo Templi Orientis
are you sure i'm quite convinced he did.
Aleister Crowley started the A.?.A.?., I think... not the O.T.O., that one was started by some German occultists.
yeah i just read he didnt start it. i do have a history of being the wrongest man in the multiverse.
Thelema is not creepy. Prairie Squid are creepy.
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCThelema is not creepy. Prairie Squid are creepy.
I dunno, it's pretty creepy if you ask me.
Quote from: eumaasQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCThelema is not creepy. Prairie Squid are creepy.
I dunno, it's pretty creepy if you ask me.
Notice I said that Thelema wasn't creepy. But the thelemites are pretty fucking creepy. So I know where you are coming from.
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCNotice I said that Thelema wasn't creepy. But the thelemites are pretty fucking creepy. So I know where you are coming from.
Oh, sorry. Yes, that's what I meant.
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCThelema is not creepy. Prairie Squid are creepy.
Well, I think you're just on some kind of judgemental trip, mister.
What a man does with his prairie squid is his business, and his business alone.
As long as it's not with my prairie squid, it's all good then.
by the way, does anyone know if Peter J. Carroll is still alive?
Quote from: Slarti the Name Changer !by the way, does anyone know if Peter J. Carroll is still alive?
noep i shot him. all hsi somebodyness, and all my nobodyness! i couldn;t take it anymore so i put a peaice of lead in his head....
wait second, peter j. caroll? never heard of him. :P
A good spell of summoning cop is to play John Zorn's "Classic Guide to Strategy" at maximum volume with all the windows open around midnight.
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomThis is a really good point. Chaos means no set patterns.
I once made an attempt to document the spells I used....write them all down...write down the visible results, if any. But it proved to be counterproductive, as what worked one time didn't work the next. Now I just go with the flow and each piece of magick is different.
I gotta agree
I startted writting thigns out , then was suprised when it didnt go as well the next time.
This was before I groked Miss Eris and her sneaky ways. so now I jsut dont ever bother writting it out
there is no point
Quote from: HorabQuote from: Slarti the Name Changer !by the way, does anyone know if Peter J. Carroll is still alive?
noep i shot him. all hsi somebodyness, and all my nobodyness! i couldn;t take it anymore so i put a peaice of lead in his head....
wait second, peter j. caroll? never heard of him. :P
Nope.Some of his selves are still alive.
thought you said elves forra second there
Phew
well tehni'll get his selves and his elves!
teh balsted little pointy eared curkly shoed bastards! tehy'll all die fiery, excruciatingly painful deaths!
but but but
who will make the toys?
umm, giant robots of d00m! :D
hurray for doom toys
chaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
:? :( :? :( :? :cry: :? :o :cry: :roll:
Quote from: The Prismatic Vroomfondelchaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
:? :( :? :( :? :cry: :? :o :cry: :roll:
that's because those guys are using hteir magic to try and get you to buy their books.
there is no doing that you haven't done before. magick is purely behaviourial, and has no power outside of a social/communicative context.
the reasons you give above(or results) are why i condmen so called magic as bullshit for people with too much money, too much time and too little imagination.
Quote from: The Prismatic Vroomfondelchaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
:? :( :? :( :? :cry: :? :o :cry: :roll:
My take is this
follow your own idea
they are just out for cash
you gotta do what works for you
that book you read is just a money sigil for them, you grok?
Make your own book
also symbolism lsot much of the power when the nazis fell....
very good points guys, thanks.
Quote from: Malaul The CaffeinatrixxQuote from: The Prismatic Vroomfondelchaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
:? :( :? :( :? :cry: :? :o :cry: :roll:
My take is this
follow your own idea
they are just out for cash
you gotta do what works for you
that book you read is just a money sigil for them, you grok?
Make your own book
Liber MMM is offered for free and so is sigil magic and many other chaos magic things. So, if you have problems with that...you don't need to buy anything. Ask me, or any other practitioner, and I or them will be more than willing to help.
Quote from: The Prismatic Vroomfondelchaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
It takes time, you won't get results right off the bat. Start off with simple, inconsequential stuff. lots of it. You've gotta build up your confidence gradually, and after that comes results, also gradually.
this isn't a light switch you're turning on here.
Quote from: RiffQuote from: The Prismatic Vroomfondelchaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
It takes time, you won't get results right off the bat. Start off with simple, inconsequential stuff. lots of it. You've gotta build up your confidence gradually, and after that comes results, also gradually.
this isn't a light switch you're turning on here.
What Riff said.
And remember to turn on your pineal gland. It's controled by the third switch down from the 23rd toggle on the wall to the left of that red rubbish bin.
You know, I never bothered trying to study up on it anywhere before. I had never let go of that childhood belief that anything is possible, so I already knew that I could do magic, all I needed was to figure out what it was that I was trying to do, and to figure out the way to get it done. Once you get to where you can feel the different energies that flow around and you learn how to start to influence them thru just concentration, you don't have to worry about any mumbo-jumbo speeches or burning of shit... It wasn't until later that I was already firmly planted in my ways of doing it that I started reading up on other pratices and realized that I was following a chaos magic path and that the whole reason any form of magic uses rituals and such is to try and trick the mind into forgetting the fact that it had been programed to know that what you were trying to do is impossible. No matter what type of magic you practice, it's not going to work unless you absolutly know, not believe, that what you are doing is going to work.
Just my $0.05 canadian.
It also helps to at least chat with some other practitioners you feel you can trust about your experiences. But failing to find those, you can always just keep practicing and record your experiences in anotebook.
Best thing for sigilization.......look up base voodoo. Use an idol of some kind for your casting, and simply ask the universe to do what needs to be done. You may not get what you want, but you will get what is NEEDED. The perks of Chaos Magick.
Quote from: fullmoonerBest thing for sigilization.......look up base voodoo. Use an idol of some kind for your casting, and simply ask the universe to do what needs to be done. You may not get what you want, but you will get what is NEEDED. The perks of Chaos Magick.
That's it in a nutshell. Good words.
Spell for very interesting and catastrophic romances:
1- Smoke pot, or not
2- Drink licor, or not
3- Smoke tobacco, or not
4- Turn yourself into Me
5- Develop infatuations with members of the opposite sex at first sight, even if it means just watching them walk down the street in a country where you've never been before and never intend to be in.
Remember to make sure that you really pursue these people as though they were Our Lady's Golden Apple and I assure you that you'll get everything from sisters one of which your closest friends is madly in Love weith aend boeth oev whoem haev a theing foer you oer a really beautiful fnord who also happens to be the incarnation of Goddess... *sniff* *sniff*
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some despair I'm supposed to be wallowing in. :(
Quote from: Slartibartfastchaos magick is frustrating.
i've tried sigilization, that doesn't work. i've tried the exercises from Liber MMM (http://www.churchofsatan.org/pdf/libermmm.pdf)but i can't do anything from that, such as not thinking, object concentration, magical trances, etc.
i've read ALL of the websites, but that just makes me an "armchair wizard", since i can't actually DO anything.
:? :( :? :( :? :cry: :? :o :cry: :roll:
That's because magic isn't real.
It's all in how you look at things, I think. If you're reading up on someone else's opinions and that doesn't quite jive with what you think, then, y'know, fuck 'em and find your own way. My view on what most would call magick is that it's really just redirection of psychic energy and is seen as occult because science hasn't found a way to measure it yet. But then, I read a lot of Carl Jung too.
Magic isn't real.
Therefore it makes the world go faster.
my mind is too rational.
i found this thread on occultforums.com = http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12553
the guy pretty much sums up my problem with chaos magick. my mind is too rational, and I just can't believe that it will work. any advice?
Yes, I suggest that you buy a book called "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron.
Despite the name, this is much more than a book on how to be an artist.
It teaches one how to be creative and playful again.
It's full of exercises to help you get in touch with the non-rational side of your brain.
We each have literally two sides to our brains and some people live more in the creative side,
while others are more comfortable in the rational side.
The ideal state is to move freely back and forth as it suits one's
best interests at the moment.
I've read this book and followed the exercises in it (sort of) three or four times now.
Each time I do it, my life changes radically and so do my thought processes.
It really helped me get in touch with the magical side of my nature.
Cuz I used to be strictly rational and unable to believe.
PS: I just realized that I've never made it all the way through the entire
book because all the changes it evokes sort of side track me.
i'll buy the book, thanks bella.
You're welcome. 8)
Let me know what you think of it, k?
It doesn't work, plain and simple. It's a farse, made up by people who play to much D&D and can't tell the diffrence between illusion and reality.
Well, it DOES work, but never the way you want it to. If you're good, it works the way you need it.
BTW, Bella, nice new avatar. Haven't been to PD for far too long.
Quote from: Lord_CaramacWell, it DOES work, but never the way you want it to. If you're good, it works the way you need it.
BTW, Bella, nice new avatar. Haven't been to PD for far too long.
Thanks, Caramac. Where ya been?
And you're right about the magic (hopefully) working the way you need it to, as opposed to how you wanted it to work.
I like that statement so much that I just stole it. :twisted:
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomQuote from: Lord_CaramacWell, it DOES work, but never the way you want it to. If you're good, it works the way you need it.
BTW, Bella, nice new avatar. Haven't been to PD for far too long.
Thanks, Caramac. Where ya been?
And you're right about the magic (hopefully) working the way you need it to, as opposed to how you wanted it to work.
I like that statement so much that I just stole it. :twisted:
Oh, I don't believe in intellectual property, anyway. I don't even really believe in physical property.
Well, I'm mostly at my gf's place, and she hasn't got DSL or cable...
Quote from: Lord_CaramacWell, it DOES work, but never the way you want it to. If you're good, it works the way you need it.
BTW, Bella, nice new avatar. Haven't been to PD for far too long.
uh, wrong.
Quote from: HotsumaIt doesn't work, plain and simple. It's a farse, made up by people who play to much D&D and can't tell the diffrence between illusion and reality.
Actuall, until I moved, I played like a fiend.
What it actually led me to believe is that ALL superstition (any non-provable belief) is hogwash.
Chaos Magic, or anything of the sort (curses, hexes, etc...) isn't real, you all need to pull your heads out of your rectal regions, step out of your fantasy worlds, and accept it.
interesting. does carmanac or st. hugh or bella or anyone favoring magick have a rebuttal?
Note: This is my non-rebuttal.
Well, I wouldn't say that I "favor magic", exactly. More like I believe it works for me.
But then, maybe my definition of magic isn't the same as everyone else's around here.
To me it's very much like prayer, in that I use my intentions and beliefs to effect changes and shifts in my world.
It's like art and tarot cards - a tool that helps me to tap into another layer or dimension of the primal chaos.
I believe that what we perceive as reality is fluid and subject to change. Hence my interest in quantum physics.
According to my theory Hotsuma, Roger and I are all equally correct.
Magic does not exist for them and it does for me.
That's why it's fruitless to rebutt something that is factually correct in their own particular version of the universe.
Just as their assertions that it doesn't exist are fruitless because I know for a fact that it does.
Best of all, Slarti.....you get to create for yourself a version of reality that best suits your nature and your needs.
You might find these articles of interest, as they explain what I'm trying to say much better than I ever could.
Go to www.discover.com and look up the following stories:
DISCOVER Vol. 23 No. 6 (June 2002)
"Does the Universe Exist if We're Not Looking?"
Eminent physicist John Wheeler says he has only enough time
left to work on one idea: that human consciousness shapes
not only the present but the past as well
By Tim Folger "
and.......
"Does Chaos Rule the Cosmos?"
November 1992
by Ian Stewart
Magic isn't real. Neither is the internet. Neither is Eris. And neither is anyone. In fact 'real' is just a collection of preconceptions glued together by spurious moral codes. Nothing about any of us human beings has anything to do with 'real' except for the fact that we eat, shit, breathe, and have sex. BFD!
You can say magic isn't real and is therefore a fantasy. But that is only because you never experienced it.
Reality is just what the filters in your brain create out of the chaos that surrounds us. Reprogram those filters, and you create a different reality. If you know how to reprogram your brain, that's magick.
Quote from: Lord_CaramacIf you know how to reprogram your brain, that's magick.
A couple of years ago, I was at a pagan festival where somebody was teaching the basic techniques of Hand-Actuated Mental Reconditioning.
The class title? "The HAMR for Witches". :D
Quote from: DJRubberducky... basic techniques of Hand-Actuated Mental Reconditioning.
Do you mean 'slapping them silly until they get a clue'?
Quote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: DJRubberducky... basic techniques of Hand-Actuated Mental Reconditioning.
Do you mean 'slapping them silly until they get a clue'?
That would work, too. :twisted:
Maybe even better?
If I remember correctly, she's talking about a therapeutic tool that involves hand movements as a way of changing one's thought patterns.
My former boss uses something similar to that in her work and I always thought it would be interesting to learn more about it.
You mean it is a serious thing? Is it mnemonic based (that is to say, entirely mental), physiological (moving certain hand muscles does actually produce changes inthe body) or some combination of the two (like some bits of ninjitsu)?
From what I can tell, the idea is to attach thoughts to your hands, so that looking at your hands triggers the thoughts. The guy said you have to do this all in about ten seconds, because the trick is to "fire up" all the sections of your brain at once and then implant the new thought.
http://www.hamr.com/ is the main website, and the tutorial is pretty much the same as the workshop I attended. The main trick is to do each thought pattern twice - once with the new thought in the left hand, once with the new thought in the right hand.
I've probably done a rotten job of explaining it, but I can vouch for it. It's been over a year since I did my self-confidence HAMRs, and I'm only now starting to backslide on it.
Quote from: HotsumaChaos Magic, or anything of the sort (curses, hexes, etc...) isn't real, you all need to pull your heads out of your rectal regions, step out of your fantasy worlds, and accept it.
::Pulls head out of rectal region steps out of fantasy world and gets a middle management job in the downtown office district::
By the Way, thank you for that website with the Hammer stuff. I just did my first one and it's fun to play with that. Personally I do believe in the power to alter reality but I recognize the possibility that it might not be real and everything I have experienced as "Proof" is just a bunshitload of synchronicity. One way or another I will choose to make my life a fairy tale, it's much more fun that way :)
I tend not to argue for the existence of magic simply for the reasons Bella has stated. Besides, reality is filtered through our own experiences and perceptions. Either it all exists, or none of it does.
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomNote: This is my non-rebuttal.
Go to www.discover.com and look up the following stories:
DISCOVER Vol. 23 No. 6 (June 2002)
"Does the Universe Exist if We're Not Looking?"
Eminent physicist John Wheeler says he has only enough time
left to work on one idea: that human consciousness shapes
not only the present but the past as well
By Tim Folger "
and.......
"Does Chaos Rule the Cosmos?"
November 1992
by Ian Stewart
i can't read the second one since i'm not registered, but i'll search online for it.
Quote from: Pope Lucifer KSCQuote from: HotsumaChaos Magic, or anything of the sort (curses, hexes, etc...) isn't real, you all need to pull your heads out of your rectal regions, step out of your fantasy worlds, and accept it.
::Pulls head out of rectal region steps out of fantasy world and gets a middle management job in the downtown office district::
By the Way, thank you for that website with the Hammer stuff. I just did my first one and it's fun to play with that. Personally I do believe in the power to alter reality but I recognize the possibility that it might not be real and everything I have experienced as "Proof" is just a bunshitload of synchronicity. One way or another I will choose to make my life a fairy tale, it's much more fun that way :)
I'm not even going to ask what it was doing up there to begin with...
Quote from: HotsumaQuote from: Pope Lucifer KSCQuote from: HotsumaChaos Magic, or anything of the sort (curses, hexes, etc...) isn't real, you all need to pull your heads out of your rectal regions, step out of your fantasy worlds, and accept it.
::Pulls head out of rectal region steps out of fantasy world and gets a middle management job in the downtown office district::
By the Way, thank you for that website with the Hammer stuff. I just did my first one and it's fun to play with that. Personally I do believe in the power to alter reality but I recognize the possibility that it might not be real and everything I have experienced as "Proof" is just a bunshitload of synchronicity. One way or another I will choose to make my life a fairy tale, it's much more fun that way :)
I'm not even going to ask what it was doing up there to begin with...
To each their own...
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCMagic isn't real. Neither is the internet. Neither is Eris. And neither is anyone. In fact 'real' is just a collection of preconceptions glued together by spurious moral codes. Nothing about any of us human beings has anything to do with 'real' except for the fact that we eat, shit, breathe, and have sex. BFD!
You can say magic isn't real and is therefore a fantasy. But that is only because you never experienced it.
Bah! Sophistry!
*whack!*
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCMagic isn't real. Neither is the internet. Neither is Eris. And neither is anyone. In fact 'real' is just a collection of preconceptions glued together by spurious moral codes. Nothing about any of us human beings has anything to do with 'real' except for the fact that we eat, shit, breathe, and have sex. BFD!
You can say magic isn't real and is therefore a fantasy. But that is only because you never experienced it.
Bah! Sophistry!
*whack!*
Stop that. Unless you use the Eris Bitchslap. And who the hell is Sophistry? And why was she not around, dancing with the heathen fire-dancers this past weekend?
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13406
this thread reaffirmed my (oh, the irony) faith in chaos magick. i need to TRY HARDER. i am such a greyface.
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCMagic isn't real. Neither is the internet. Neither is Eris. And neither is anyone. In fact 'real' is just a collection of preconceptions glued together by spurious moral codes. Nothing about any of us human beings has anything to do with 'real' except for the fact that we eat, shit, breathe, and have sex. BFD!
You can say magic isn't real and is therefore a fantasy. But that is only because you never experienced it.
Bah! Sophistry!
*whack!*
Stop that. Unless you use the Eris Bitchslap. And who the hell is Sophistry? And why was she not around, dancing with the heathen fire-dancers this past weekend?
I'll do worse. Bootsie Collins bitchslap:
(http://pcutil.home.comcast.net/slap.gif)
chapelle's show is awesome, rev.
Hail Bootsie!
I was going through old emails today and happened across this letter from my aunt.
In this letter she is explaining to one of her clients how and why magic works.
I think it's quite beautiful.
"Spells are but thoughts given substance. Spells and thoughts, once cast, have a shape, a form, and a definite pattern in astral lights and shadows, the vision few people touch upon save in their deepest of dreams.
And if those thoughts accompany certain sounds, an attunement with nature may occur. And if that attunement finds purchase, if it corresponds in time and space with the correct sorts of materials or right patterns of energy, the powers of nature itself may be unlocked. Not sound nor neither shape nor thought alone will suffice. All components are required for the complete spell or whole idea.
Even a clever soul, taught by another clever soul already well versed in magic, might take years of study and practice and merely begin to get it right.
Success burns its pathway into the target's brain (whether your own or the brain of another), making a home for the proper thought of the intended correct action, establishing the proper effect, giving the brain a clear image - works - for it has worked - it does work - and the certainty that it will work again is not to be underestimated.
The more fearful the projected image to the subject, the stronger the effect. (I will not go this far,) but that is another story.
Magic is a fundamental part of a macrocosm of grandeur and majesty beyond the realm of complete understanding. It's intricacies, it's archetype, it's true shape, it's true sound, and it's true thought. If all this is simultaneously held in the mind, it's success is assured. And know that it exists, then and there in time and space, it potentially does things - magical things - interplanar things - if only allowed to do them.
E.M."
Magic is...............
heh.
pfft.
BOO!
magick is just a willed manefestation of maya.
at least, from a buddhist perspective.
My magical system.
Well, let's say I was a bit disappointed with reality.
Anyone read the Dragonlance Series of Novels?
Well, me and a good friend of mine, named Josh, have named ourself members of the Coucil of High Sorcery. I am head of the White Robes, he's head of the Red Robes, and I am the current Head of the Council.
I regularly cast spells by invoking the name of Solinari, and the magic is working for me. Which leads me to believe Wies and Hickman are prophets.
I nominate them for canonization.
Quote from: Saint*Bastardmagick is just a willed manefestation of maya.
at least, from a buddhist perspective.
Maya? Have you seen her?
She owes me a carton of cigarettes.
Yeah, and she left watermarks on all my CGI movies I made.
*pies Donkey*
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.
:crankey:
Quote from: Horab Fibslager on November 16, 2003, 01:23:45 AM
well alot of crowley is a different sorta occultism altogether, that's what i meant by dying misunderstood.
no one ever got the secret message.
cahos magic is essentially concious behavioural change. it's doen everyday in teh offices of psycho-therapists and drug rehab centers.
basically it is changing one's own attitudes, thought processes, habits, et al, conciously.
leary wrote some good material on it, but was also a victim of it, as are msot futurist writers(the RAW's and whatnot)(tho the futrusits go off in different tangent at soem point and become media machines and slaves to the method).
take for intance the follwoing:
a young man who is froma middle class neighborhood looks at all the black kids from teh hood who are the cool kids. they get all teh honey's and everyone wants to be liek them. so does he. he adapts their method of dress, method of speech, habits, behaviours. it's a concious change.
he is no longer who he once was, he is a shell of what the kids he wants to be like.
that's a perfect example of proper chaos magic.
the yuppified version, often propagated by the above mentioned futurists, new age nuts and wiccans is to cghange your attitudes and beliefs and behaviours to suit the moment(tho i'm wording that badly)
example: if one day you feel like you don't want to be married any more , you get a divorce. you decide you like being married the next day, you find new partner. you don't like your job of 10 years? quit it a find a new vocation. don;t like the way you look? get plastic surgery and lok like someone else.
basically it's gratifying the base needs, the most current whim.
there's mroe to it than that, and i'm arguing rather oen sidedly against it's use. in reality it's something used everyday, all the time, often with positive results.
do you have a link?
:cramstipated:
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Necromancy?
:ohnotache:
When I think of an authority on chaos magic, I always think of Horab.
:magick:
:lulz:
Quote from: Horab Fibslager on November 16, 2003, 01:16:29 AM
it's only cool if you want to go insane or forget who you are(or yoruself entirely) otherwise it's agreat way meet women...
of course that's the real chaos magic. not that yuppy shit where tehy're always like "jsut do what's good for you at the moment" they confuse met-programming and concious behavioural change with narcisism(er however that's spelt), self indulgence, and decadence.
the most well known chaos magician, aliester crwoley, convinced hismelf that he was rich powerful, important and famous. he died poor, a slave to heroin, infamous(or unknown) and largely forgotten, and worst of totally misunderstood.
Look what You People made me bump.
You're not right. In the head.