Thoughts on the Founders

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Everyone in the United States likes to back up one of their political arguments with what would the Founding Fathers do. And you know, I've heard it for the last time without forming some pretty distinct thoughts on the matter.

Raising the ghosts of the Founders to support your political argument is just flat out stupid. Here's why:

1) They're freaking dead. They've all been dead for about 200 years. That means they're not around to a) see enough of the 21st century and the issues and the rationale behind the issues to even form a well informed opinion on those issues, and b) they're not around to say, no dude, I wouldn't have said that at all. You're imposing your views on someone who wouldn't have even understood what your views are.

2) They're not some monolithic group of men who all agreed on everything. What's the point of having a representative republic at all at that point? Might as well just appoint one of them supreme leader for life, if they all thought the same. No, in fact, they had a hard time agreeing on anything. Why do you think it took 80 some odd years and us splitting in two and going to war with each other in order to get rid of slavery? Do you think everyone agreed on slavery in the 1780s? Some of the nastiest political campaigns in the history of the United States were all fought by the Founders. They were jerks, and they hated each other. Modern political campaigns look like a tickle fight in comparison. Matter of fact, in order to get the Constitution written, they all had to get drunk.

3) They're not gods. This isn't the freakin' Dominion on Star Trek. (Though a shapeshifting Washington who had to sleep in a bucket would be kinda cool.) They were men. Just because there's a mythology built around them doesn't mean they were special, or that we should appeal to their authority over our own ability to reason. You know, especially because they're dead and would have no clue what to make of anything you and your debating partner are talking about if you hopped in a time machine to get them to clarify whose side they would choose.

4) Older isn't necessarily better. If you think it is, feel free to purchase a phonograph and a horse and buggy. There's no such thing as the good old days or simpler times. That's just nostalgia. And in this case, it's nostalgia for an era before your great-grandparents were even born.

5) The Founders aren't necessarily The Framers. The Founders are the upstarts who stirred up rebellion and had the idea that the Colonies should be independent, semi-democratic. The Framers are the ones who drafted the Constitution because the Founders fucked up the first system of government in the United States. Let me repeat that- the Founders made a big old mess that the Framers had to clean up. Some of the Founders were also Framers, but not all Founders were Framers and not all Framers were Founders. So the Framers were plenty aware that their new document was also probably flawed, and made it possible to fix their mistakes as we went along. So if there's anything that we can be reasonably sure of what the Framers would think about modern day politics is to leave them out of it and figure it out on our own, since we're supposed to have improved the Constitution from the version they gave us. That's why we have more than 10 amendments.

So, who gives a shit what the Founders would think? They were looking up to us. Stop living in the past and start thinking about the present. If you can't support your political argument without using necromancy, then you don't actually have an argument, and need a clueless ghost to talk for you.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

It used to be that I figured the Framers must have been remarkably smart, for giving us a Constitution that has survived through not one but TWO major technological revolutions (industrial and information) since it was originally created. But the more I have been paying attention, the less firmly I hold on to that assumption.

As it turns out, the Constitution has been completely ignored most of the time, except in matters of general form and function of the government. Whenever it is inconvenient to abide by, say, the 4th Amendment, it turns out all you need is a team of lawyers to come up with a classified legal brief explaining why the 4th Amendment doesn't apply, and presto! the 4th Amendment is irrelevant.

So the Framers (and by extension the Founders) weren't really mega-geniuses at all. They were marginally more effective than the bunch of useless leeches currently occupying DC, but there's no excuse to elevate them to Demi-God status just so we can avoid thinking our own way out of tough situations.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

It used to be that I figured the Framers must have been remarkably smart, for giving us a Constitution that has survived through not one but TWO major technological revolutions (industrial and information) since it was originally created. But the more I have been paying attention, the less firmly I hold on to that assumption.

As it turns out, the Constitution has been completely ignored most of the time, except in matters of general form and function of the government. Whenever it is inconvenient to abide by, say, the 4th Amendment, it turns out all you need is a team of lawyers to come up with a classified legal brief explaining why the 4th Amendment doesn't apply, and presto! the 4th Amendment is irrelevant.

So the Framers (and by extension the Founders) weren't really mega-geniuses at all. They were marginally more effective than the bunch of useless leeches currently occupying DC, but there's no excuse to elevate them to Demi-God status just so we can avoid thinking our own way out of tough situations.

Exactly. Though, I wouldn't say they were marginally more effective. Well, maybe they were. They did manage to agree on the Constitution in the first place. Even though booze was required. Maybe we should get Congress tanked, lock the doors and see what happens.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

This was sparked because a person on my friends list posted... here let me find it.



And I pointed out that the concept itself was absurd because the Founders wouldn't have known what health insurance was in the first place.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

This was sparked because a person on my friends list posted... here let me find it.



And I pointed out that the concept itself was absurd because the Founders wouldn't have known what health insurance was in the first place.

What a beautiful image! Here, let me see if I can do it...

[Nephew Twiddleton]

 

I'll have to use these in the future.

[McGrupp]

This was sparked because a person on my friends list posted... here let me find it.



And I pointed out that the concept itself was absurd because the Founders wouldn't have known what health insurance was in the first place.

What a beautiful image! Here, let me see if I can do it...

beautiful

I've slowly over time realized the constitution isn't the document I was led to believe in school.

Everyone loves the constitution when it supports their position. When it doesn't, it becomes outdated and 'the founders could never have foreseen a need for __________.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Here's the funny thing about it too- the message is simplistic as well. I also think it's absurd for the government to force you to buy something. He, of course is taking the talking points typical of it, my take is, if the government is going to make everyone have something, than it should automatically be provided by the government to everyone. He thinks health insurance is something to be earned, I think it's a basic need in modern society, especially where preventative medicine is the best medicine.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Here's the funny thing about it too- the message is simplistic as well. I also think it's absurd for the government to force you to buy something. He, of course is taking the talking points typical of it, my take is, if the government is going to make everyone have something, than it should automatically be provided by the government to everyone. He thinks health insurance is something to be earned, I think it's a basic need in modern society, especially where preventative medicine is the best medicine.

This is also my position on the topic. Health care is a human right, and contrary to all the talking points, it isn't just for humanitarian, bleeding-heart reasons. It's also practical: with a healthy labor force that isn't threatened with financial ruin if they fall out of health, you have more productive workers and stronger customers, both of which benefit the economy. What's not to like?

On the other hand, if you're going to tell me I must have this thing, that's fine, but don't make my only option to purchase it from a for-profit company that can only make a profit by doing the opposite of what people are paying them for. It's a conflict of interest if I ever saw one.

[Cain]

Well, it's essentially an appeal to authority.

Which makes it just as fallacious as every other appeal to authority in history.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Well, it's essentially an appeal to authority.

Which makes it just as fallacious as every other appeal to authority in history.

That's exactly what  Thomas Jefferson would have expected an Englishman to say.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

This was sparked because a person on my friends list posted... here let me find it.



And I pointed out that the concept itself was absurd because the Founders wouldn't have known what health insurance was in the first place.

What a beautiful image! Here, let me see if I can do it...

beautiful

I've slowly over time realized the constitution isn't the document I was led to believe in school.

Everyone loves the constitution when it supports their position. When it doesn't, it becomes outdated and 'the founders could never have foreseen a need for __________.

That goes for any nebulous source of authority. But the Constitution is an all to common one.

One of my favorites are the misinterpretations of free speech.

"Someone called me stupid/fired me/told me to shut the fuck up because I said something stupid. That's a violation of my first amendment rights!"
"What about theirs?"

[tyrannosaurus vex]

This was sparked because a person on my friends list posted... here let me find it.



And I pointed out that the concept itself was absurd because the Founders wouldn't have known what health insurance was in the first place.

What a beautiful image! Here, let me see if I can do it...

beautiful

I've slowly over time realized the constitution isn't the document I was led to believe in school.

Everyone loves the constitution when it supports their position. When it doesn't, it becomes outdated and 'the founders could never have foreseen a need for __________.

That goes for any nebulous source of authority. But the Constitution is an all to common one.

One of my favorites are the misinterpretations of free speech.

"Someone called me stupid/fired me/told me to shut the fuck up because I said something stupid. That's a violation of my first amendment rights!"
"What about theirs?"

Also, I think the cult of the Founders has sprung up exactly because the Constitution itself doesn't support many of the opinions out there. For example the Constitution doesn't have a single thing to say about religion other than "Congress can't touch it" and "There can be no religious test for public office." Theists have to justify their power mongering somehow, and since the Constitution doesn't say anything about it, they have to build up the people who wrote the Constitution, or fought to establish American independence, so they can appeal to that authority instead. Same goes for a lot of "git yer manger off my city hall lawn" anti-theists, by the way.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

This was sparked because a person on my friends list posted... here let me find it.



And I pointed out that the concept itself was absurd because the Founders wouldn't have known what health insurance was in the first place.

What a beautiful image! Here, let me see if I can do it...

beautiful

I've slowly over time realized the constitution isn't the document I was led to believe in school.

Everyone loves the constitution when it supports their position. When it doesn't, it becomes outdated and 'the founders could never have foreseen a need for __________.

That goes for any nebulous source of authority. But the Constitution is an all to common one.

One of my favorites are the misinterpretations of free speech.

"Someone called me stupid/fired me/told me to shut the fuck up because I said something stupid. That's a violation of my first amendment rights!"
"What about theirs?"

Also, I think the cult of the Founders has sprung up exactly because the Constitution itself doesn't support many of the opinions out there. For example the Constitution doesn't have a single thing to say about religion other than "Congress can't touch it" and "There can be no religious test for public office." Theists have to justify their power mongering somehow, and since the Constitution doesn't say anything about it, they have to build up the people who wrote the Constitution, or fought to establish American independence, so they can appeal to that authority instead. Same goes for a lot of "git yer manger off my city hall lawn" anti-theists, by the way.

Certainly. The religion of the Founders is always the same as your own. Because, again, they are some monolithic force of nature that all agreed on everything. Even though some Founders had some really choice anti-religion quotes, and other Founders liked to talk about God, which was of course a vague deist god a good portion of the time.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Can I add this to my Big Words backlog?