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Started by Nephew Twiddleton, April 22, 2014, 05:13:00 AM

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P3nT4gR4m

What happened was science started disproving large chunks of biblical myth?

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 22, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
What happened was science started disproving large chunks of biblical myth?

Nope. The Church has always been fairly flexible on that point. Catholics and Lutherans aren't literalists, like Fundies are. And, there is little "Biblical myth" that can't work around scientific knowledge.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Junkenstein

Galileo may disagree a touch there.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Nigel on April 22, 2014, 10:15:36 PM
Yes, this is what I was talking about. The pursuit of scientific inquiry was considered one of the most God-glorifying pursuits, because what more noble subject is there for man than to study the Creation of God?

I'm not really sure what happened after that, or why for some reason most Born-Agains hate science.

For people like Twid and I, it still is the ultimate holy work.  Figuring out God's rulebook, so to speak.

And there was always an anti-science crowd.  In the time period we're talking about, it was mostly in England.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Junkenstein on April 22, 2014, 10:29:03 PM
Galileo may disagree a touch there.

Galileo was on trial because he was an asshole.  Because he was an asshole, 2 mathematicians that could provide the proofs he needed would not help him (he had spent the previous year calling them ignoramuses).  Because he could not PROVE his case, his ideas contrary to current scriptural interpretation were legally heresy.

But he wasn't in a dungeon or anything.  He just had to stay in his house.  There was never any question of burning him.  He was considered a national treasure during his own life, and the whole trial business was to convince him to stop, you know, being a complete asshole to his colleagues.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 22, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
What happened was science started disproving large chunks of biblical myth?

Heresy means "contradicting interpretation without being able to prove your case".  The Catholic church has always amended interpretation in the face of evidence.  In October/November of 1998, for example, they acknowledged evolution as the mechanism by which man (and everything else) arrived where we are.

The Lutherans and the Calvinists (at least back in the day) were exactly the same way.  Hell, half of the founders were rabid presbyterians from some Northern bit of the British Isles, but they didn't see the need to involve their faith with science or politics.

That's all fairly recent.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Junkenstein

Asshole or not, he was right. Credit where it's due. I'd rather get the right answer from an asshole than bullshit from a smiling group.

Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I'm not saying that the Catholic Church hasn't historically been a cabal of greedy, power-hungry control freaks. I'm just saying that they have historically been very pro-science, along with most Protestant churches, as well as most of Islam and Judaica. The idea that they are all anti-science is relatively new, and seems largely to be fueled by the vehement extremist screechings of fundamentalist neophobes.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Junkenstein on April 22, 2014, 10:48:39 PM
Asshole or not, he was right. Credit where it's due. I'd rather get the right answer from an asshole than bullshit from a smiling group.

Thing is, he was such an asshole that he was actually slowing things down.

And he was unable to prove he was right at the time.  You gonna take an asshole at his word, just because he's an asshole?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Nigel on April 22, 2014, 10:54:35 PM
I'm not saying that the Catholic Church hasn't historically been a cabal of greedy, power-hungry control freaks. I'm just saying that they have historically been very pro-science, along with most Protestant churches, as well as most of Islam and Judaica. The idea that they are all anti-science is relatively new, and seems largely to be fueled by the vehement extremist screechings of fundamentalist neophobes.

Yep.  Most often Baptists, and I think that's primarily due to the manner and locations in which the Baptist church grew in the USA.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Junkenstein on April 22, 2014, 10:48:39 PM
Asshole or not, he was right. Credit where it's due. I'd rather get the right answer from an asshole than bullshit from a smiling group.

If you reread that, he was unable to provide proofs to support his hypotheses because he pissed off his COLLEAGUES IN SCIENCE. So, are you going to point the finger at scientists for being anti-science? That's like calling Nature (the esteemed journal) "anti-science" for refusing to publish a paper because it offers no evidence in support of the conclusion.

The right answer is no answer at all without supporting evidence.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Junkenstein

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 22, 2014, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 22, 2014, 10:48:39 PM
Asshole or not, he was right. Credit where it's due. I'd rather get the right answer from an asshole than bullshit from a smiling group.

Thing is, he was such an asshole that he was actually slowing things down.

And he was unable to prove he was right at the time.  You gonna take an asshole at his word, just because he's an asshole?

Well this is interesting. I would say that this would depend on the level of potential consequence. If the asshole is just slowing down something mundane, that's one thing. This asshole was asking a society to revise it's doctrine. And we all know how well people do when asked to reconsider their beliefs.

So is this then, a systematic problem? At the time, research was reliant on church funds and obligated to them accordingly. Now, much less so. However the systems have changed somewhat so dissenting views are heard without house arrest(mostly) so that's progress. I wouldn't be shocked to learn however that the majority of current religious funded research supports that particular belief structure. That could probably apply to any research with a motivating set of beliefs funding it too.

(above typed pre-nigel post)

Fair points. In the modern era though, I would assume fringe ideas would get circulated in lesser publications until someone does a "discrediting X" piece. I would have assumed most get dismissed or torn apart but those with substance eventually filter through for due consideration. I guess I'm also hoping modern science is a lot more tolerant of assholes.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Junkenstein on April 22, 2014, 11:13:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 22, 2014, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 22, 2014, 10:48:39 PM
Asshole or not, he was right. Credit where it's due. I'd rather get the right answer from an asshole than bullshit from a smiling group.

Thing is, he was such an asshole that he was actually slowing things down.

And he was unable to prove he was right at the time.  You gonna take an asshole at his word, just because he's an asshole?

Well this is interesting. I would say that this would depend on the level of potential consequence. If the asshole is just slowing down something mundane, that's one thing. This asshole was asking a society to revise it's doctrine. And we all know how well people do when asked to reconsider their beliefs.

So is this then, a systematic problem? At the time, research was reliant on church funds and obligated to them accordingly. Now, much less so. However the systems have changed somewhat so dissenting views are heard without house arrest(mostly) so that's progress. I wouldn't be shocked to learn however that the majority of current religious funded research supports that particular belief structure. That could probably apply to any research with a motivating set of beliefs funding it too.

(above typed pre-nigel post)

Fair points. In the modern era though, I would assume fringe ideas would get circulated in lesser publications until someone does a "discrediting X" piece. I would have assumed most get dismissed or torn apart but those with substance eventually filter through for due consideration. I guess I'm also hoping modern science is a lot more tolerant of assholes.

Thing is, nobody really had any heartburn with Galileo's ideas. In fact, the church was trying very hard to wiggle out of the Earth-centric model, which was by then obviously silly, and Galileo's work contributed directly to that.

But he was an asshole, and made very powerful enemies.  And those enemies used politics to slap him down.

Under any other pope of that time period, he'd have been in much more serious trouble, but not killed and not because of his ideas...But because he was a pain in the ass.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Religion often seems to get the blame for things done with political motivation. I guess it's a handy scapegoat, but scapegoating it doesn't match up with reality, and doesn't help us avoid politically-motivated bullshit.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Nigel on April 22, 2014, 11:22:52 PM
Religion often seems to get the blame for things done with political motivation. I guess it's a handy scapegoat, but scapegoating it doesn't match up with reality, and doesn't help us avoid politically-motivated bullshit.

And part of the problem there is that within Europe, religion and politics were different sides of the same coin. We can randomly dismiss the thoughts of our ancestors with "Well, they didn't know better." But they did. The Greeks knew the Earth was spherical, and they knew pretty accurately how large that sphere was. The whole idea that it was broadly assumed that the Earth is flat is kinda ridiculous. All you need to prove that it is round is the sun, the moon and an eclipse.

And the Catholic Church gets a bad rap. Hell, the Anglican Church gets a bad rap. But I will point out that I was raised in the Catholic elementary school system, and we learned the shit out of science. Talk to any Catholic about their contribution to science and they will say one thing immediately: "LaMaitre. Priest. Scientist. Big Bang Theory." Religious folk are proud as shit when they make a discovery. And that's the whole damn point. If you're going to believe in a god or gods, fucking figure out what he/she/it is up to. The Catholics, despite their, admittedly very dark history, at least got that shit right, as did a weird English occultist named Isaac Newton.
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