"Stupid wingnut says something stupid" thread

[Doktor Howl]

I'm in favor of the lash for the same reason as the original author.  Prison is expensive, cruel, and completely ineffective.

Just pull their fingernails off.  They'll never do it again.

Thank you.  For a while there I thought I was the lonely voice in the wilderness.

You seem to be interpreting me as in favor of the lash AND prison.  I'm in favor of the lash INSTEAD of prison.  Because I know there is no way we can simply abandon punishment.

A system of restitution would be better still, but unlikely.

You, sir, are a hippie.  Cut their feet off.

[Placid Dingo]

All very insightful thoughts, from a bunch of people, who as far as I can tell, have never been to Prison. Go and do a stretch inside, even a short one, then come back and read your 'insights' again. Until you have, then all your opinions on the subject are flawed.

Your thoughts?

[Doktor Howl]

I think BH has been reading crappy Heinlein novels again.

[Jenne]

All very insightful thoughts, from a bunch of people, who as far as I can tell, have never been to Prison. Go and do a stretch inside, even a short one, then come back and read your 'insights' again. Until you have, then all your opinions on the subject are flawed.

My father did hard time for 3.5 years, then minimum security for another 3.  I don't know and haven't seen ALL he had to endure, but I know way more than your average PD'er.

THAT being said, BH, I still don't know WHY your moral compass is so fucked up.  Your first clue that your bent on this was flawed was that you AGREED with a rightwingnut blogger.  THEN thinking that "cheaper beatings" was a way to punitive "victory" over the penal system was also severely assinine.

THESE ARE MOTHERFUCKING PEOPLE, goddammit.  Not senseless, unintelligent beings.  Beating their asses is more demoralizing than separating them from friends, family and their freedom for a spell.

YES we need to change how we approach our penal system and implement it.  YES we need to change the amount that is spent on incarceration (it's NOT quality of life, dammit, that keeps those rates so sky-high--it's the motherfucking TRIPLE GODDAMMED PENSIONS that the fuckers who run the places wrack up).

BUT FIRST, we need to CHANGE how we VIEW those who break the law.

Because maybe THEN they won't be the throw-away citizens they tended to be treated as.

DON'T give me what so-called societal reality is on this--we're talking WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN.  DON'T give me the argument "we haven't done it that way," because no one IS SAYING we have.  What I'm telling your asses is that if we CHANGE the way we see what the consequences of breaking the law means, and if we CHANGE the way we see what needs to be done preventatively, WE MIGHT FIGHT RESCIDIVISM and we MIGHT just be able to STOP throwing away such a HUGEASS chunk of the population.

[Jenne]

I think BH has been reading crappy Heinlein novels again.

I think he needs to spend some time "on the inside," even if it's just to be an observer.

[BabylonHoruv]

I think BH has been reading crappy Heinlein novels again.

I think he needs to spend some time "on the inside," even if it's just to be an observer.

So that I can learn that it is not so fucked up that it would be better to replace it with beatings?


I haven't been in prison by my brother in law has, my cousin has, and a few of my friends have.  None of them came out better for it, and my cousin came out of it involved with the Aryan Brotherhood.  Sure, that's his own fault, but I know that I really wish he'd just been beaten, I bet the people who's house he was arrested for breaking into wish he had been beaten, and I know any non-white person that he encounters would prefer that he had been beaten.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

I'd certainly rather be beaten than spend a month in prison, let alone years.

Beating people may not be good, but it is better.

So you advocate a punishment that you would prefer done to you?

Think about that for a second.

Punishments aren't supposed to be enjoyable.

I'd rather someone I hate be lashed too.  More visceral immediate enjoyment.  I can watch and enjoy.

I can't watch and enjoy when he's in a cage.

Well, I guess now we know who's still on all fours here. 

[Doktor Howl]

So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

I'd certainly rather be beaten than spend a month in prison, let alone years.

Beating people may not be good, but it is better.

So you advocate a punishment that you would prefer done to you?

Think about that for a second.

Punishments aren't supposed to be enjoyable.

I'd rather someone I hate be lashed too.  More visceral immediate enjoyment.  I can watch and enjoy.

I can't watch and enjoy when he's in a cage.

Well, I guess now we know who's still on all fours here. 

Um.  We already knew he had "special" taste in porn, right?  This is hardly a surprise.

[BadBeast]

Thing is, the type of Criminal a society has, is largely dependent on the style of "Justice" system they have. In the US, the Prisons are penitentiary in nature, the high violence and brutality levels between factional races/gangs combined with the amount of long term sentences handed out by the Judiciary, all contribute to the level of violence and desperation encountered in the criminal at large, who has done any time. The "Three strikes" rule that I know some (if not all) states have, means that someone convicted of non-violent Burglary twice, is far more prepared to use higher levels of violence, to avoid being caught a third time. So your burglars are progressing on to more violent crimes, simply because the Judiciary raises the ante so high for a third striker. And the sheer amount of people in the US Prison population, per 100,000 is, I think, second only to China. So not only are you getting a more desperate criminal being produced, you are also getting more of them per head per capita than anywhere else.   

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thing is, the type of Criminal a society has, is largely dependent on the style of "Justice" system they have. In the US, the Prisons are penitentiary in nature, the high violence and brutality levels between factional races/gangs combined with the amount of long term sentences handed out by the Judiciary, all contribute to the level of violence and desperation encountered in the criminal at large, who has done any time. The "Three strikes" rule that I know some (if not all) states have, means that someone convicted of non-violent Burglary twice, is far more prepared to use higher levels of violence, to avoid being caught a third time. So your burglars are progressing on to more violent crimes, simply because the Judiciary raises the ante so high for a third striker. And the sheer amount of people in the US Prison population, per 100,000 is, I think, second only to China. So not only are you getting a more desperate criminal being produced, you are also getting more of them per head per capita than anywhere else.   

Actually, we're WAY ahead of China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoner_population_rate_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG

[Salty]

I have no love for our justice system beyond its capacity to protect me from a large amount of random acts of violence, robbery, etc.

I am definitely not taking the position that it's the best option we have.

All I'm saying is that the desire replace it with a system that seeks to gratify a personal fetish sense of justice and a desire to see your enemies physically punished is a sign of un-fun badwrongness.

[BadBeast]

Thing is, the type of Criminal a society has, is largely dependent on the style of "Justice" system they have. In the US, the Prisons are penitentiary in nature, the high violence and brutality levels between factional races/gangs combined with the amount of long term sentences handed out by the Judiciary, all contribute to the level of violence and desperation encountered in the criminal at large, who has done any time. The "Three strikes" rule that I know some (if not all) states have, means that someone convicted of non-violent Burglary twice, is far more prepared to use higher levels of violence, to avoid being caught a third time. So your burglars are progressing on to more violent crimes, simply because the Judiciary raises the ante so high for a third striker. And the sheer amount of people in the US Prison population, per 100,000 is, I think, second only to China. So not only are you getting a more desperate criminal being produced, you are also getting more of them per head per capita than anywhere else.  

Actually, we're WAY ahead of China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoner_population_rate_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG

Wow! That's way higher than I thought. Over 5 times higher than we've got in the UK.  

[BadBeast]

I have no love for our justice system beyond its capacity to protect me from a large amount of random acts of violence, robbery, etc.

I am definitely not taking the position that it's the best option we have.

All I'm saying is that the desire replace it with a system that seeks to gratify a personal fetish sense of justice and a desire to see your enemies physically punished is a sign of un-fun badwrongness.

I agree totally. Compared to US Prisons, our own really are like holiday camps. This is reflected by the chance of becoming a victim of violent crime in the UK. Although it may be on the rise, our worst Cities are still far safer for citizenry than in US Cities.

[Jenne]

...and there's a reason for that.  Well, many, really.  American society's complex legal system, coupled with the hybrid of justice-for-all-but-freedom-first kinda makes for a very bizarro situation.  We are over-legislated, which means there's way too much to throw a body into jail for, and it's something society sees as on off-set to liberty that they cash in for feeling "safe."

We're nowhere NEAR China in civil liberties rapes...but we're getting damned close.  We incarcerate far more than they do, but then, we've got a much tighter centralized way of controlling people.

And the UK has more CCTV's per street corners than we do, I believe...though I could be wrong about that.

Prison in Yurp in general is a cake walk, relatively speaking, compared to what we have here in the US, unless you're in minimum security or a "Club Fed," but even those are not "fun."  By any means.

I'm never going to say, yeah, let's keep the status quo! for our government ANYTHING...but neither will I say baby and bathwater need to gtfo.  Because what's behind it might be WORSE.  Things can ALWAYS get worse.

AND BEATING PEOPLE IS WORSE.  Period.  EOS.

[Cain]

I have no love for our justice system beyond its capacity to protect me from a large amount of random acts of violence, robbery, etc.

I am definitely not taking the position that it's the best option we have.

All I'm saying is that the desire replace it with a system that seeks to gratify a personal fetish sense of justice and a desire to see your enemies physically punished is a sign of un-fun badwrongness.

I agree totally. Compared to US Prisons, our own really are like holiday camps. This is reflected by the chance of becoming a victim of violent crime in the UK. Although it may be on the rise, our worst Cities are still far safer for citizenry than in US Cities.

All the figures I've seen show a decline in violent crime over the past 20 years.

Conversely, reporting on and thus fear of violent crime has increased in the same period, giving the impression of a possible rise.

Also I would say it depends on what prison.  While few UK prisons are going to be as bad as certain US max-security facilities, the likes of Belmarsh and the other Catergory A prisons are no laughing matter.