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Hollywood Must Be Destroyed

Started by Prelate Diogenes Shandor, January 18, 2012, 10:07:27 PM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on January 19, 2012, 06:26:05 AM
Quote from: kingyak on January 19, 2012, 05:55:24 AM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on January 19, 2012, 01:59:51 AM
I s'pose if I looked hard enough I could find it and download it. But I'd rather just buy an album from him and you know, make sure he gets paid for the work he did for my enjoyment.

That bit there is my biggest issue with the way the music and movie industries are going about their attempts at "IP protection" through laws like SOPA. I honestly believe that most things that get downloaded illegally are things that aren't available for legitimate purchase (concert recordings, for example), or things that the downloader probably wouldn't have paid for in the first place, especially these days when paid downloads are relatively cheap and easy versus finding a pirate copy that's correctly labeled and not more virus-laden than Charlie Sheen. Overly-strict IP laws, IMO, are really about protecting the mainstream entertainment industry's right to profit from content that is just enough to the positive side of mediocre that some people will begrudgingly pay for it if they have no other choice. Creators of content that is legitimately good can profit without overly-restrictive IP laws simply be virtue of the fact that they're creating good content that people actually want to pay for.
Don't disagree with that, for sure. But I think that's a bit beside the point though, innit? I mean, the OP is calling for basically complete and total artistic...  communism? I mean, recording ain't cheap. There is also a large time investment in writing and rehearsing, etc. I'm not sure distributing everything via kopyleft would be an equitable solution.

Yeah, it seemed immensely naive to call for a total boycott of all distributed media regardless of origin.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Nephew Twiddleton

A band can expect to pay at the very least four figures for an ep with decent sound quality. My previous band paid about fifteen hundred for six songs. Avariel sank 20k into their 9 song album. And they were a local band. My cirrent band lucked out because we met a guy who knows how to do it and can afford to do it for shits and giggles in his basement that he converted into a recording studio on one side and a damn convincing irish pub on the other. I thought i died and went to heaven (fourth attempt at posting this)
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

P3nT4gR4m

Antipiracy lobby: Dear Guvmint, people are stealing from us - this sucks!

Fourth Reich: Dear Antipiracy lobby, no probs we haz solution - we'll invade Afghanistan and also install spycamz in every toilet in teh USA

Antipiracy lobby: Okay ... so this will help how?

Fourth Reich: Very complicated, trust us we haz your bestest interests at heart

Antipiracy lobby: But I don't see how ...

Fourth Reich: Okay, it's quite simple, first you back the bill and then we don't kill your families. Here, have some spondoolicks.

Antipiracy lobby: Ah, of course, yes we understand now. Yeah we'll back that all the way.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
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Triple Zero

Quote from: Cain on January 18, 2012, 11:33:07 PMOn the other hand, the NSA is developing cyber-warfare centres across the USA with a large enough capacity to store half of all the information on the internet, Facebook already has 1800 pages worth of information on you and Google are letting the government read your emails via a purpose built backdoor.

People getting all worked up about SOPA from a civil liberties POV are missing the point: that ship already sailed.  Total Information Awareness has been the name of the game since 2003. Wake up and smell the retroactive FISA immunity bill.  They're spying on the Quakers, so they're sure as fuck spying on you.  If you're worried about this being used to squash internal dissent, you're missing the fact the President can just send a a Predator drone or JSOC hitsquad around your place to blow your brains out - all perfectly legally.

I'm all for kicking megacorps in the teeth and pissing on their wheaties, but lets not build this up into anything it's not.

Well said.

On the other hand, yesterday I read an article of a guy that did IMO have the right idea:
http://ploum.net/post/im-a-pirate
he advocates piracy, but also advocates supporting artists, especially the smaller ones. he wonders, among other things, how come the artists that get downloaded *most*, are so rich then?

Quote from: Nigel on January 19, 2012, 06:12:17 AMThe more I know about the companies that back the RIAA and MPAA, the less I think these laws have to do with protecting content from piracy. It leaves me baffled and I have no idea what they're really for, though.

Yes. It's just a theory, but I think it's something like a money/power bubble that's about to bust. The recording and movie industries grew into a billion dollar industry. The problem is, a very large part of this whole chain of industries is becoming very obsolete in the past 10-15 years.
Imagine, the theoretical cost of transporting media went from transporting heavy movie reels of film worth hundreds of thousands dollar a piece to the cost of zapping a few gigs of video through the transatlantic fibre-optics, aka Free as in Aspartame.
But most movies are still distributed this way. Which is why we get USA movies a few weeks later in Europe, because there's only so many expensive reels to go around. Sounds completely retarded, right? Even more retarded is that in some cases they did switch to digital distribution, but they still cling to this time-staggered distribution model, supposedly because otherwise the cinemas that don't have this "advanced digital technology"* yet would have an unfair disadvantage (note that this does not profit the customer one bit and the only reason they can even do this is because of their monopoly). Further down the road this is how we got DVD region codes.
So much money is involved in making this process look as complex and magical as possible, that they'll bend backwards all the way to prevent people from getting such ludicrous ideas as shouldn't it be possible to just push a button and zap a few gigs over the transatlantic fibre-optics?

And this is just one thing. Most parts of that industry are important-seeming people trying to appear as if they're doing critically important and expensive jobs, that are in fact almost completely obsolete thanks to do the digital revolution (and possibly other factors).

This is not to say that there's no actors to be paid, locations, camera men, equipment, studio editing, etc. There's a certain core of true hard work involved in making a movie, and it's not cheap. A friend of mine does some semi professional film making and I got an idea how involved it is. But it's just work, and organizing shit. It's not a multi billion dollar industry.

That's just more of the façade, because what do these 100 millions Hollywood budgets give us, as the consumer vs a lower budget movie? More explosions, more CGI, more 3D, Christian Bale and Johnny Depp. But the stories remain remixed comic books. Is the increased cost worth it in customer value if the stories are just shitty? Of course not! It is just another excuse to throw away money at an industry that's terrified that people notice it's actually 90% dead weight.

Sorry I'm rambling. I'll try to get to my point. The point is, I think a lot more than we currently realize in the "big media" industries is completely obsolete. And that bubble is in danger of bursting. But there's still a lot of money and power in this industry, so it's lashing about in panic, trying to keep its status and seem big and relevant.
And piracy is one of those things that somehow exposes the dead bits. And it seems that smaller, more efficient companies are somewhat embracing it, because face it, if you play it right, it's great marketing. But accepting the 1080p BlueRay-rips as legit media would force the deadweight industry to admit that, yes, in fact transporting a film in cinema-quality is as easy as pushing a button and zapping it through the transatlantic fibre-optics.


*projector with a HDMI plug and a modern desktop PC.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 19, 2012, 10:30:54 AM
Antipiracy lobby: Dear Guvmint, people are stealing from us - this sucks!

Fourth Reich: Dear Antipiracy lobby, no probs we haz solution - we'll invade Afghanistan and also install spycamz in every toilet in teh USA

Antipiracy lobby: Okay ... so this will help how?

Fourth Reich: Very complicated, trust us we haz your bestest interests at heart

Antipiracy lobby: But I don't see how ...

Fourth Reich: Okay, it's quite simple, first you back the bill and then we don't kill your families. Here, have some spondoolicks.

Antipiracy lobby: Ah, of course, yes we understand now. Yeah we'll back that all the way.

LOL, no, in the US it's more like "Hey, we want legislation passed that makes it easier for us to go after companies we want to claim are infringing on our copyrights... and by the way, if things look good for our bottom line in the second quarter, we think we could push a half-mil or so in bundled contributions toward your re-election campaign."

Congressman: "Hmmmm... I bet we could insert some verbiage that would allow us to shut down any website at any time without due process. It's a deal!"
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I haven't traced all of the big four to their umbrella corps, but it looks like they may all be owned by the big five information corporations... which would make it not entirely unlikely that this is really about controlling information on the internet. The big five already (for all practical purposes) own the airwaves and print, so it makes sense that the internet would be their next bid.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


kingyak

Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on January 19, 2012, 06:26:05 AM
Quote from: kingyak on January 19, 2012, 05:55:24 AM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on January 19, 2012, 01:59:51 AM
I s'pose if I looked hard enough I could find it and download it. But I'd rather just buy an album from him and you know, make sure he gets paid for the work he did for my enjoyment.

That bit there is my biggest issue with the way the music and movie industries are going about their attempts at "IP protection" through laws like SOPA. I honestly believe that most things that get downloaded illegally are things that aren't available for legitimate purchase (concert recordings, for example), or things that the downloader probably wouldn't have paid for in the first place, especially these days when paid downloads are relatively cheap and easy versus finding a pirate copy that's correctly labeled and not more virus-laden than Charlie Sheen. Overly-strict IP laws, IMO, are really about protecting the mainstream entertainment industry's right to profit from content that is just enough to the positive side of mediocre that some people will begrudgingly pay for it if they have no other choice. Creators of content that is legitimately good can profit without overly-restrictive IP laws simply be virtue of the fact that they're creating good content that people actually want to pay for.
Don't disagree with that, for sure. But I think that's a bit beside the point though, innit? I mean, the OP is calling for basically complete and total artistic...  communism? I mean, recording ain't cheap. There is also a large time investment in writing and rehearsing, etc. I'm not sure distributing everything via kopyleft would be an equitable solution.

Yeah, observation completely tangential to the OP/current discussion. Probably should have made that clear.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."-HST

kingyak

I mostly agree with the pirate Triple Zero linked, but have a few issues and exceptions.

First off, the "never buy a CD" thing: In some cases, following this literally would take money directly from the artist. I rarely buy physical CDs, but when I do it's usually directly from a band/performer at a show and usually one that they've financed themselves. I might be able to download the music for free or cheaper, but this way I'm helping them cover the gas money. Of course, this guy says he doesn't go to shows, so it might not apply to him.

The "the artists are only getting a small portion of the money, so it's ok to deprive them of their pittance" doesn't quite work for me. Kind of like justifying not tipping your server because they make less than minimum wage. And yes, I realize the point is to deprive the bad actor company of profits, but not sure that justifies the artist as collateral damage (especially coming from someone who, again, doesn't go to concerts, which in my understanding is where most musicians make the bulk of their money anyway). My usual rule is that for an artist who is not signed with a major record label or who consistently puts out good material, I'll pay for their work if it's available on a pay site. I usually restrict pirated downloads to either live/unreleased stuff I can't buy, artists (or songs form albums by questionable artists) that I'm unfamiliar with and just want to check out (if I like it, I'll buy something from them later), stuff I've paid for in a different format in the past, or things I'm not downloading to listen to myself (this doesn't happen much any more, but when I drove a cab the right music could make me extra tip money, so I downloaded a lot of shit that I could stand to listen to but didn't really want to listen to). And these days a lot of times I'll even pay for that stuff because I've got a pretty shitty internet connection and it's less trouble to just buy a song than to deal with all the viruses and mislabeled files (for open torrent/peer to peer sites) or incredibly nitpicky rules (for the Oink-like sites) that you have to download to get them for free.

As for Trip's comments, I think he hits a lot of things right on the money, particularly the "dead weight" issue. For movies, there's also apparently a  perception among the studios that producing a movie without spending a lot of money is a bad idea for some reason. Years and years ago I saw Neil Gaiman speak at DragonCon and he talked about how he was having trouble selling a Death movie because it wouldn't cost enough money to make.


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."-HST

kingyak

Quote from: Nigel on January 19, 2012, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 19, 2012, 10:30:54 AM
Antipiracy lobby: Dear Guvmint, people are stealing from us - this sucks!

Fourth Reich: Dear Antipiracy lobby, no probs we haz solution - we'll invade Afghanistan and also install spycamz in every toilet in teh USA

Antipiracy lobby: Okay ... so this will help how?

Fourth Reich: Very complicated, trust us we haz your bestest interests at heart

Antipiracy lobby: But I don't see how ...

Fourth Reich: Okay, it's quite simple, first you back the bill and then we don't kill your families. Here, have some spondoolicks.

Antipiracy lobby: Ah, of course, yes we understand now. Yeah we'll back that all the way.

LOL, no, in the US it's more like "Hey, we want legislation passed that makes it easier for us to go after companies we want to claim are infringing on our copyrights... and by the way, if things look good for our bottom line in the second quarter, we think we could push a half-mil or so in bundled contributions toward your re-election campaign."

Congressman: "Hmmmm... I bet we could insert some verbiage that would allow us to shut down any website at any time without due process. It's a deal!"

https://www.eff.org/wp/unintended-consequences-under-dmca

It's a long article, but it covers some of the ways companies have tried to use the DMCA that have nothing to do with IP protection. I think it's a safe bet that those are the starting points for PIPA/SOPA.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."-HST

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Nigel on January 19, 2012, 06:12:17 AM
Quote from: kingyak on January 19, 2012, 05:55:24 AM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on January 19, 2012, 01:59:51 AM
I s'pose if I looked hard enough I could find it and download it. But I'd rather just buy an album from him and you know, make sure he gets paid for the work he did for my enjoyment.

That bit there is my biggest issue with the way the music and movie industries are going about their attempts at "IP protection" through laws like SOPA. I honestly believe that most things that get downloaded illegally are things that aren't available for legitimate purchase (concert recordings, for example), or things that the downloader probably wouldn't have paid for in the first place, especially these days when paid downloads are relatively cheap and easy versus finding a pirate copy that's correctly labeled and not more virus-laden than Charlie Sheen. Overly-strict IP laws, IMO, are really about protecting the mainstream entertainment industry's right to profit from content that is just enough to the positive side of mediocre that some people will begrudgingly pay for it if they have no other choice. Creators of content that is legitimately good can profit without overly-restrictive IP laws simply be virtue of the fact that they're creating good content that people actually want to pay for.

The more I know about the companies that back the RIAA and MPAA, the less I think these laws have to do with protecting content from piracy. It leaves me baffled and I have no idea what they're really for, though.

I can tell you that you won't be hurting any of the big companies appreciably by boycotting physical media distribution.

I meant to boycott legal music downloads as well. They're all firsthand.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

East Coast Hustle

You still haven't explained, well, anything really.

Is there a point to this aside from you not wanting to pay for your entertainment?

How would you suggest musicians/actors/etc. get paid for their work?
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Nephew Twiddleton

Thats even worse as musicians can get more of a cut from legal downloads.

And you still havent addressed my questions about this. Why should i as a working musician forego payment? How does this make me more free? Especially where since im not signed any profits are direct and dont support anything but the bandmembers?
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Triple Zero on January 19, 2012, 12:55:53 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 18, 2012, 11:33:07 PMOn the other hand, the NSA is developing cyber-warfare centres across the USA with a large enough capacity to store half of all the information on the internet, Facebook already has 1800 pages worth of information on you and Google are letting the government read your emails via a purpose built backdoor.

People getting all worked up about SOPA from a civil liberties POV are missing the point: that ship already sailed.  Total Information Awareness has been the name of the game since 2003. Wake up and smell the retroactive FISA immunity bill.  They're spying on the Quakers, so they're sure as fuck spying on you.  If you're worried about this being used to squash internal dissent, you're missing the fact the President can just send a a Predator drone or JSOC hitsquad around your place to blow your brains out - all perfectly legally.

I'm all for kicking megacorps in the teeth and pissing on their wheaties, but lets not build this up into anything it's not.

Well said.

On the other hand, yesterday I read an article of a guy that did IMO have the right idea:
http://ploum.net/post/im-a-pirate
he advocates piracy, but also advocates supporting artists, especially the smaller ones. he wonders, among other things, how come the artists that get downloaded *most*, are so rich then?

Totally onboard with this idea

Quote from: Triple Zero on January 19, 2012, 12:55:53 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 19, 2012, 06:12:17 AMThe more I know about the companies that back the RIAA and MPAA, the less I think these laws have to do with protecting content from piracy. It leaves me baffled and I have no idea what they're really for, though.

Yes. It's just a theory, but I think it's something like a money/power bubble that's about to bust. The recording and movie industries grew into a billion dollar industry. The problem is, a very large part of this whole chain of industries is becoming very obsolete in the past 10-15 years.
Imagine, the theoretical cost of transporting media went from transporting heavy movie reels of film worth hundreds of thousands dollar a piece to the cost of zapping a few gigs of video through the transatlantic fibre-optics, aka Free as in Aspartame.
But most movies are still distributed this way. Which is why we get USA movies a few weeks later in Europe, because there's only so many expensive reels to go around. Sounds completely retarded, right? Even more retarded is that in some cases they did switch to digital distribution, but they still cling to this time-staggered distribution model, supposedly because otherwise the cinemas that don't have this "advanced digital technology"* yet would have an unfair disadvantage (note that this does not profit the customer one bit and the only reason they can even do this is because of their monopoly). Further down the road this is how we got DVD region codes.
So much money is involved in making this process look as complex and magical as possible, that they'll bend backwards all the way to prevent people from getting such ludicrous ideas as shouldn't it be possible to just push a button and zap a few gigs over the transatlantic fibre-optics?

And this is just one thing. Most parts of that industry are important-seeming people trying to appear as if they're doing critically important and expensive jobs, that are in fact almost completely obsolete thanks to do the digital revolution (and possibly other factors).

This is not to say that there's no actors to be paid, locations, camera men, equipment, studio editing, etc. There's a certain core of true hard work involved in making a movie, and it's not cheap. A friend of mine does some semi professional film making and I got an idea how involved it is. But it's just work, and organizing shit. It's not a multi billion dollar industry.

That's just more of the façade, because what do these 100 millions Hollywood budgets give us, as the consumer vs a lower budget movie? More explosions, more CGI, more 3D, Christian Bale and Johnny Depp. But the stories remain remixed comic books. Is the increased cost worth it in customer value if the stories are just shitty? Of course not! It is just another excuse to throw away money at an industry that's terrified that people notice it's actually 90% dead weight.

Sorry I'm rambling. I'll try to get to my point. The point is, I think a lot more than we currently realize in the "big media" industries is completely obsolete. And that bubble is in danger of bursting. But there's still a lot of money and power in this industry, so it's lashing about in panic, trying to keep its status and seem big and relevant.
And piracy is one of those things that somehow exposes the dead bits. And it seems that smaller, more efficient companies are somewhat embracing it, because face it, if you play it right, it's great marketing. But accepting the 1080p BlueRay-rips as legit media would force the deadweight industry to admit that, yes, in fact transporting a film in cinema-quality is as easy as pushing a button and zapping it through the transatlantic fibre-optics.


*projector with a HDMI plug and a modern desktop PC.

This more clearly communicates much of the point that i was trying to get across. The movie industry is unnecessary because with modern technology their entire function in society could easily be fulfilled on a shoestring budget by independent artists. May I reprint this on some of the other forums where I posted my manifesto? As I said, I think that it communicates a large part of my point more effectively than I did.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Nephew Twiddleton

Ech im pretty sure at this point hes not actually going to answer our questions. I think hes just trying to justify his sense of entitlement to free entertainment as some sort noble crusade and that musicians should just suck it up.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on January 20, 2012, 01:49:49 AM
You still haven't explained, well, anything really.

Is there a point to this aside from you not wanting to pay for your entertainment?

This is about retribution for SOPA and PIPA, even if they don't get passed, the fact that they've gotten as far as they did is by itself worthy of retribution.

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on January 20, 2012, 01:49:49 AM
How would you suggest musicians/actors/etc. get paid for their work?

I don't know, and for that I'm sorry. I bear no ill will towards the actual artists, but something has to be done about their corporate masters, and I don't foresee any any magical means making itself available to take down or even slightly weaken the RIAA and MPAA without any collateral damage. In my eye, however, the important thing is that the forseeable collateral damage is less than the damage that the RIAA and MPAA will do if left unchecked. Is nearly impossible to kill the king without capturing a few pawns.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago