So, the Shia LaBeef Thing... (WARNING possible triggers)

[Reginald Ret]

Many interesting points in this thread.

[hooplala]

My understanding of the situation was that the only way this event was allowed to transpire was precisely because Shia didn't resist. Because that was the point of the piece. People were "allowed" to do whatever they wanted, and he wasn't going to physically react.

My point wasn't that what transpired wasn't rape; it clearly was. 

My question was, if a situation in an art installation becomes that uncomfortable, at what point does one reasonably pack it in and break the art wall?

Can you link to a source for this? Because:

"Nowhere did we state that people could do whatever they wanted to Shia during #IAMSORRY.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/30/shia-labeouf-collaborators-turner-ronkko-speak-alleged-rape-iamsorry-art-show

One woman who came with her boyfriend, who was outside the door when this happened, whipped my legs for 10 minutes and then stripped my clothing and proceeded to rape me."

His collaborators, British artist Luke Turner and Finnish artist Nastja Säde Rönkkö, said they had intervened as soon as they became aware of the incident and "put a stop to it".

The woman whipped his legs for ten minutes, stripped him, and raped him... before the other two were able to notice, and stop it. We can infer from this that at no time did Shia stop her. Possibly from shock, but he could have stopped her at any point during the whipping, but didn't. I doubt he anticipated it would go as far as it did... but I can't imagine having the commitment to art to sit it out until my collaborators came to rescue me.

I suppose this thread is the result of some sort of mix of incredulity and berserk hero worship on my part.  Is this making any sense?

[Doktor Howl]

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I suppose this thread is the result of some sort of mix of incredulity and berserk hero worship on my part.  Is this making any sense?

Shia Lebouf as a hero?

He's the Yoko Ono of his generation.

[hooplala]

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I suppose this thread is the result of some sort of mix of incredulity and berserk hero worship on my part.  Is this making any sense?

Shia Lebouf as a hero?

He's the Yoko Ono of his generation.

I can't imagine having that much commitment to an idea, so I admire him in a certain sense.

Also, I like Yoko.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

My understanding of the situation was that the only way this event was allowed to transpire was precisely because Shia didn't resist. Because that was the point of the piece. People were "allowed" to do whatever they wanted, and he wasn't going to physically react.

My point wasn't that what transpired wasn't rape; it clearly was. 

My question was, if a situation in an art installation becomes that uncomfortable, at what point does one reasonably pack it in and break the art wall?

Can you link to a source for this? Because:

"Nowhere did we state that people could do whatever they wanted to Shia during #IAMSORRY.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/30/shia-labeouf-collaborators-turner-ronkko-speak-alleged-rape-iamsorry-art-show

One woman who came with her boyfriend, who was outside the door when this happened, whipped my legs for 10 minutes and then stripped my clothing and proceeded to rape me."

His collaborators, British artist Luke Turner and Finnish artist Nastja Säde Rönkkö, said they had intervened as soon as they became aware of the incident and "put a stop to it".

The woman whipped his legs for ten minutes, stripped him, and raped him... before the other two were able to notice, and stop it. We can infer from this that at no time did Shia stop her. Possibly from shock, but he could have stopped her at any point during the whipping, but didn't. I doubt he anticipated it would go as far as it did... but I can't imagine having the commitment to art to sit it out until my collaborators came to rescue me.

I suppose this thread is the result of some sort of mix of incredulity and berserk hero worship on my part.  Is this making any sense?

I don't know if you've ever been assaulted, but having the ideal reaction to it is pretty rare.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

[hooplala]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

[President Television]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

When you're being sexually assaulted or raped, a lot of the time you don't want to draw attention. It's an irrational kneejerk reaction, but you don't want anyone to see what's going on out of fear and shame, and that aversion is stronger than the rational knowledge that other people can get you out of your predicament. Yes, this does last for the entire duration quite a bit of the time. Hell, in my experience it can last for days, weeks, or years after the fact.

[hooplala]

That last post of mine was pretty cold and unsympathetic. I've never been in a sexual assault, so it's impossible for me to theorize. Obviously.

It is a difficult scenario for me to visualize, which only illustrates how out of depth of knowledge I am. I'm truly sorry if I've offended, or inadvertently triggered, anyone.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

A. One common effect of sudden threat on the autonomous nervous system is being unable to make a sound. Women are frequently asked "why didn't you scream?"

B. I'm not sure that any of us know what the acoustic properties of the room are, or what the environment his colleagues were in was like. Was there music? Was it noisy? Was the room soundproofed against street noise? Was it down the hall?

So I'm going to ask you the same question again: If it was a woman who reported being assaulted, beaten with a whip, and raped, in a closed room with other people in a nearby room, would you question the rape by asking why she did not scream or fight back?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

When you're being sexually assaulted or raped, a lot of the time you don't want to draw attention. It's an irrational kneejerk reaction, but you don't want anyone to see what's going on out of fear and shame, and that aversion is stronger than the rational knowledge that other people can get you out of your predicament. Yes, this does last for the entire duration quite a bit of the time. Hell, in my experience it can last for days, weeks, or years after the fact.

Yes.

It might sound weird, but rape, and sexual assault in general, is embarrassing. You are helpless and exposed and unwillingly obscene. Often the first response isn't outrage, or even fear, but humiliation.

[hooplala]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

A. One common effect of sudden threat on the autonomous nervous system is being unable to make a sound. Women are frequently asked "why didn't you scream?"

B. I'm not sure that any of us know what the acoustic properties of the room are, or what the environment his colleagues were in was like. Was there music? Was it noisy? Was the room soundproofed against street noise? Was it down the hall?

So I'm going to ask you the same question again: If it was a woman who reported being assaulted, beaten with a whip, and raped, in a closed room with other people in a nearby room, would you question the rape by asking why she did not scream or fight back?

Initially, yes. But I was being glib without putting much thought into it, which was ridiculously insensitive. Again, I apologize. This entire thread was ill conceived.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

A. One common effect of sudden threat on the autonomous nervous system is being unable to make a sound. Women are frequently asked "why didn't you scream?"

B. I'm not sure that any of us know what the acoustic properties of the room are, or what the environment his colleagues were in was like. Was there music? Was it noisy? Was the room soundproofed against street noise? Was it down the hall?

So I'm going to ask you the same question again: If it was a woman who reported being assaulted, beaten with a whip, and raped, in a closed room with other people in a nearby room, would you question the rape by asking why she did not scream or fight back?

Initially, yes. But I was being glib without putting much thought into it, which was ridiculously insensitive. Again, I apologize. This entire thread was ill conceived.

Well, it got us to talk/think about a touchy subject, the rape of a man by a woman, so it served some purpose.

[President Television]

I feel like I should ask... if you heard this same story, but it was a woman being assaulted by a man, would you also be incredulous that she did nothing to stop the assault?

I am not accusing you of sexism, I am just wondering whether you have some mental models you might want to examine a little more closely, because I don't find it at all strange or confusing that he didn't resist the assault.

I find it strange that anyone who was in an art instillation with two associates in the other room wouldn't at least call out for assistance, yes. Male or female.

This wasn't an alley, or a college dorm room. It was an art instillation with two associates in the other room.

A. One common effect of sudden threat on the autonomous nervous system is being unable to make a sound. Women are frequently asked "why didn't you scream?"

B. I'm not sure that any of us know what the acoustic properties of the room are, or what the environment his colleagues were in was like. Was there music? Was it noisy? Was the room soundproofed against street noise? Was it down the hall?

So I'm going to ask you the same question again: If it was a woman who reported being assaulted, beaten with a whip, and raped, in a closed room with other people in a nearby room, would you question the rape by asking why she did not scream or fight back?

Initially, yes. But I was being glib without putting much thought into it, which was ridiculously insensitive. Again, I apologize. This entire thread was ill conceived.

I consider it no waste. And it'd be pretty ridiculous of me to judge you for being unaware of the emotional subtleties of something you've never personally experienced. I think it's a surprise to everyone it happens to. Quite a bit more of the suffering occurs on a social level than on a physical one.

[minuspace]

I'm outsourcing my judgement of the artist's assault to the fate of his character in FURY, as god intended.  No spoilers please.