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Calling it now: Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016.

Started by Doktor Howl, August 04, 2015, 12:19:20 AM

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Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 11, 2015, 04:01:04 PM
This is a really good analysis of the tensions between white progressive Sanders-supporters and BLM that might shed some light into why they feel defensive enough to try to discredit BLM activists: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/11/9127653/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter

Do you disagree with the premise--that racial inequality is largely a function of economic inequality?

It seems to me that it strikes at the heart of the matter. What drives the school to prison pipeline? Underfunded schools and and the continued privatization of prisons. Do a lot of cops think black lives don't matter because they are black or more because our value as human fucking beings in America is viewed in terms of money and the power that comes with that? Are there specific racial issues that wouldn't be heavily mitigated by tangible reform towards more economic justice? If so, how exactly are they mutually exclusive from economic disenfranchisement?
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The Johnny

You didnt ask me, but, a major part is discrimination, which encompasses all difference from the white male upper class standard.

So if you are not white, not male, not upper class you will be treated worse than the abstract standard.

So yes and no, if you act white enough and have enough money, i.e. Condolezza, Beyonce, Oprah then you can bypass some of that discrimination, but money is just one of the factors of discrimination.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: N E T on August 11, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 11, 2015, 04:01:04 PM
This is a really good analysis of the tensions between white progressive Sanders-supporters and BLM that might shed some light into why they feel defensive enough to try to discredit BLM activists: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/11/9127653/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter

Do you disagree with the premise--that racial inequality is largely a function of economic inequality?

It seems to me that it strikes at the heart of the matter. What drives the school to prison pipeline? Underfunded schools and and the continued privatization of prisons. Do a lot of cops think black lives don't matter because they are black or more because our value as human fucking beings in America is viewed in terms of money and the power that comes with that? Are there specific racial issues that wouldn't be heavily mitigated by tangible reform towards more economic justice? If so, how exactly are they mutually exclusive from economic disenfranchisement?

Yes, I absolutely disagree with that premise. There is really no evidence that supports it. While poverty is higher among black people by percentage, they are a smaller total percentage of the population, by a lot, and therefore there are far more poor white people than poor black people. If economic inequality explained the poor treatment of black people, then you would expect to see that same economic inequality affecting poor white people in the same ways. Therefore, you would expect to see an epidemic of white deaths at the hands of police, and an epidemic of white people in prison, far outstripping those occurring among black people.

But we don't. And we do see middle-class black people being murdered by the police, and middle-class black people being sent to prison, at a far higher rate than one could ever expect based on the economics-over-racism model.

I think it is a very appealing story that many white Progressives tell, that there is truly no racism, really, only classism under another name. Unfortunately, it is not supported by the available evidence provided to us by our friend, Reality.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Johnny on August 11, 2015, 08:25:35 PM
You didnt ask me, but, a major part is discrimination, which encompasses all difference from the white male upper class standard.

So if you are not white, not male, not upper class you will be treated worse than the abstract standard.

So yes and no, if you act white enough and have enough money, i.e. Condolezza, Beyonce, Oprah then you can bypass some of that discrimination, but money is just one of the factors of discrimination.

Please don't with the "act white". Just don't. That has nothing to do with anything.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Trivial

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/Felsenthal-Files/May-2015/Bernie-Sanders-University-of-Chicago/

He organized a sit-in protest in 1962 against racially segregated campus housing.  Just learned that today because of the BLM thing.





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Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 12, 2015, 01:57:47 AM
Quote from: N E T on August 11, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 11, 2015, 04:01:04 PM
This is a really good analysis of the tensions between white progressive Sanders-supporters and BLM that might shed some light into why they feel defensive enough to try to discredit BLM activists: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/11/9127653/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter

Do you disagree with the premise--that racial inequality is largely a function of economic inequality?

It seems to me that it strikes at the heart of the matter. What drives the school to prison pipeline? Underfunded schools and and the continued privatization of prisons. Do a lot of cops think black lives don't matter because they are black or more because our value as human fucking beings in America is viewed in terms of money and the power that comes with that? Are there specific racial issues that wouldn't be heavily mitigated by tangible reform towards more economic justice? If so, how exactly are they mutually exclusive from economic disenfranchisement?

Yes, I absolutely disagree with that premise. There is really no evidence that supports it. While poverty is higher among black people by percentage, they are a smaller total percentage of the population, by a lot, and therefore there are far more poor white people than poor black people. If economic inequality explained the poor treatment of black people, then you would expect to see that same economic inequality affecting poor white people in the same ways. Therefore, you would expect to see an epidemic of white deaths at the hands of police, and an epidemic of white people in prison, far outstripping those occurring among black people.

But we don't. And we do see middle-class black people being murdered by the police, and middle-class black people being sent to prison, at a far higher rate than one could ever expect based on the economics-over-racism model.

I think it is a very appealing story that many white Progressives tell, that there is truly no racism, really, only classism under another name. Unfortunately, it is not supported by the available evidence provided to us by our friend, Reality.

OK. Was sitting this out, weighing things, adjusting priors. This post sent it way over the top. I'm convinced. Bernie thinks economic inequality is at the root, but you've clearly shown its not.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Klittra and the sybians on August 12, 2015, 04:53:18 AM
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/Felsenthal-Files/May-2015/Bernie-Sanders-University-of-Chicago/

He organized a sit-in protest in 1962 against racially segregated campus housing.  Just learned that today because of the BLM thing.

There's no question he was an activist, 50-odd years ago.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Bruno

My support of Sanders is based on the fact that he voted against the invasion of Iraq, Clinton did not. Sure, she later changed her mind, but that hardly counts for anything. The decision to go to war to war or not is something you need to get right at the beginning, not after you've already done it.
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Doktor Howl

Everything I've seen and read so far is pretty compelling.

But I'm voting for Senator Sanders no matter what, but not because I am a "Bernie" fan.  No, I plan to vote for him because the other candidates are the same old thing, and Sanders is Crazy Eddie.  His policies cannot work; for an experienced politician, he is very naive.  His policies will in fact cause massive political messes and likely real-world messes.

But it will be entertaining.  And when everything finally implodes, I'd just as soon be amused.  Also, it's worth noting that "the same old thing" isn't working, either.
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Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Re the police shootings th9ng, the real issue there is the justice system being corrupt. If it were possible for a police officer to be convicted of a crime there'd be a lot less of these shootings, racism or not.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on August 12, 2015, 10:16:13 PM
Re the police shootings th9ng, the real issue there is the justice system being corrupt. If it were possible for a police officer to be convicted of a crime there'd be a lot less of these shootings, racism or not.

Well, the thing is, it IS possible, according to the laws of the land. Our racist police force simply always "investigates" and then "clears them of any wrongdoing", or our racist justice system finds them "not guilty".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


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Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 12, 2015, 01:57:47 AM
Quote from: N E T on August 11, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 11, 2015, 04:01:04 PM
This is a really good analysis of the tensions between white progressive Sanders-supporters and BLM that might shed some light into why they feel defensive enough to try to discredit BLM activists: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/11/9127653/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter

Do you disagree with the premise--that racial inequality is largely a function of economic inequality?

It seems to me that it strikes at the heart of the matter. What drives the school to prison pipeline? Underfunded schools and and the continued privatization of prisons. Do a lot of cops think black lives don't matter because they are black or more because our value as human fucking beings in America is viewed in terms of money and the power that comes with that? Are there specific racial issues that wouldn't be heavily mitigated by tangible reform towards more economic justice? If so, how exactly are they mutually exclusive from economic disenfranchisement?

Yes, I absolutely disagree with that premise. There is really no evidence that supports it. While poverty is higher among black people by percentage, they are a smaller total percentage of the population, by a lot, and therefore there are far more poor white people than poor black people. If economic inequality explained the poor treatment of black people, then you would expect to see that same economic inequality affecting poor white people in the same ways. Therefore, you would expect to see an epidemic of white deaths at the hands of police, and an epidemic of white people in prison, far outstripping those occurring among black people.

But we don't. And we do see middle-class black people being murdered by the police, and middle-class black people being sent to prison, at a far higher rate than one could ever expect based on the economics-over-racism model.

I think it is a very appealing story that many white Progressives tell, that there is truly no racism, really, only classism under another name. Unfortunately, it is not supported by the available evidence provided to us by our friend, Reality.

You're saying that poor white people aren't affected in the same ways? They aren't killed by cops, they don't get funneled into the for-profit prison system, they aren't turned away from jobs and aren't caught in the same vicious cycle of poverty?

Do you think that if racial equality were achieved tomorrow that there wouldn't be a prison industrial complex chewing people up and spitting wads of cash into a few people's pockets (but hey, at least it would be wrecking people's lives in proportion to their racial demographics).

I'm not saying inequality is the sole factor and that racism doesn't separately compound the problem. All I'm saying is that poverty and ever widening inequality are a major factor. I'm saying socio-economics are the primary instrument through which institutional racism is expressed. Black lives matter yeah, and so do Native American lives, and so do Hispanic lives, and so do transgendered people's lives. Their houses are on fire too.

I don't think there is a silver bullet, but in terms of a kyriarchy of oppression, wealth inequality is screwing the most people and even extends beyond people--the concentration of wealth and power enables greedy scum to wreck ecosystems throughout the world. No one's saying racial issues and inequality are mutually exclusive or that we can only focus on one or the other. But when push comes to shove, inequality subsumes racial issues and affects more people.
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President Television

I don't think she's saying that at all, but that's just my 2 cents.
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The Wizard Joseph

Sometimes I get hung up on a thread here @PD, slowly absorbing info and pondering whether or not I have relevant input, and this has definitely been one.

Not sure I should chime in, but I'm gonna because the economic and racial issues are quite intertwined but not the exact same thing and also I begin to suspect that other than Nigel I may have significantly greater experience than many here with the good and bad alike in Black culture and can certainly state that I've seen the prejudice mechanics in action and even counted upon them on some few occasions in my life. Notably to keep Black, and other minority, friends out of jail or needless arrest, but no all my deeds are laudable or fair minded or just. If someone draws from me a need to kick them under a bus, under they go.
This has not been an issue for a very long time and I very much hope to keep it so.

Just to be clear the following draws from my subjective experiences and observations of prejudiced racial attitudes. It is what it is, but what it is not is an attempt to offend or put anybody down. I've lived in the stew of racial strife my whole life and my hometown is a special case of ongoing tensions faced openly and resulting in understanding and compromise. This doesn't mean that the tension is going away any time soon.

Nigel is, as one might guess, totally correct about the very strong religious and conservative tendency in Black culture. It might, just might, be stronger than in White culture, certainly by proportion. I can attest that within my experience their churches are quite a bit more cohesive and often the word of a trusted minister or elder is better able to exert greater influence for good or ill. This tendency does reinforce a certain prejudice common to conservative church-goers against homosexuals. Being Black is hard and unfair, being also gay and male can be nightmarish. Note that this is not AT ALL a hard rule, but a strong and consistent tendency is undeniable in my experience.

It bears mention, because the "Liberal Black" is just another stereotype and not even a particularly realistic one. There's a weird assumption among the more ignorant Whites that all minorities cling together and just freaking love each other. This is probably because the Whites in question don't get, and often don't at all desire, much multi-racial exposure. The "I don't hate those people but..." mentality is extremely common, a certain willful ignorance even more so. But enough about whitey for now.

Where this comes relevant to the discussion at hand is directly related to the BLM movement and Mr. Sanders' reaction to the first of BLM's protests, as I saw it. Mr. Sanders tried to have his say over voices he didn't fully understand, couldn't fully understand because he might be a lot of things but Black isn't one of them. He stood against the fury of it and did his best to stick to his message, to what he knows. This was perhaps not optimal, but not a bad response to a disruption under normal circumstances.

Problem was this was not normal circumstances. Those voices were from people that have an immediate and terribly deadly problem that they NEED to see addressed with due urgency, not diverted to discourse on root causes and long term solutions. Sanders didn't GET IT, but I understand he's trying like hell to and that's far more than ANY other candidate currently running will do. They'll search for a talking point or an ally to act as a mouthpiece maybe, but not really try to understand in an experiential sense. He'll never fully understand because he's pretty darn far from the street level, blood and concrete, shit and Whiter than a mayonnaise sandwich on Wonderbread, but he's BLM's best shot and it certainly got him listening and spread their message. It's a good message about very bad problems.

Those problems go very deep indeed, but I need some sleep and would like some feedback before I decide whether or not to keep going here.

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