http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/dec/09/jazz-festival-larry-ochs-saxophone
QuotePolice decided to investigate after an angry jazz buff complained that the Larry Ochs Sax and Drumming Core group was on the wrong side of a line dividing jazz from contemporary music.
The jazz purist claimed his doctor had warned it was "psychologically inadvisable" for him to listen to anything that could be mistaken for mere contemporary music.
According to a report in El País newspaper yesterday, the khaki-clad police officers listened to the saxophone-playing and drumming coming from the festival stage before agreeing that the purist might, indeed, have a case.
His complaint against the organisers, who refused to return his money, was duly registered and will be passed on to a judge.
Alright Iason, time to stop pretending to be a Spanish doctor and giving out free "advice". You have gone too far.
JAZZ IS MUSICAL WANKING!!!!!!
(http://www.norelpref.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/the-commitments-pic-3.jpg)
Fact: there is nothing on the face of Planet Mudball more insufferable than a jazz purist.
Wrong! There's the crap he listens to.
Bazinga!
Quote from: Cain on December 10, 2009, 08:47:35 PM
Alright Iason, time to stop pretending to be a Spanish doctor and giving out free "advice". You have gone too far.
It's not my fault that jazz fans are so easy to troll. :evil:
PD.com: we might not agree on anything, but we all agree that jazz is shit.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 10, 2009, 10:50:02 PM
PD.com: we might not agree on anything, but we all agree that jazz is shit.
I'm not fucking leaving just 'cos nobody else here likes jazz - fuck
that noise too . . .
I like miles Davis (he was funny) and Nina Simone.
If I'm really, REALLY fucked up I will not break the hands of someone who puts on thelonious monk.
I like some other jazz but wouldn't know about who makes it.
Of course, people who listen and/or make/air smooth jazz should be killed immediately.
Alty,
disgreeing to agree.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 10, 2009, 10:50:02 PM
PD.com: we might not agree on anything, but we all agree that jazz is shit.
No we don't; I love jazz.
But it's easily mockable, and I would never discourage the practice.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 11, 2009, 01:02:24 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 10, 2009, 10:50:02 PM
PD.com: we might not agree on anything, but we all agree that jazz is shit.
No we don't; I love jazz.
But it's easily mockable, and I would never discourage the practice.
This.
just because you love it doesn't mean it's not shit.
for example, I love 80's hair metal, which is definitely shit.
RCH,
actually really hates jazz though
All music is shit.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 11, 2009, 01:19:26 AM
just because you love it doesn't mean it's not shit.
for example, I love 80's hair metal, which is definitely shit.
RCH,
actually really hates jazz though
Possibly true, but I don't think it's shit. Some parts of it, maybe I might agree.
Hoopla
-not a Dixieland fan
I'm a Jazz fan. But I'm not a purist by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I also like Smooth Jazz, which I imagine drives the jazz purists batty.
I like the bits in jazz when it's all random and atonal and shit.
But I prefer it when they sample it and apply some breakbeats.
SPEAKING OF
wasn't James Brown jazz?
I mean, HELLO FUNKY DRUMMER BREAK
so that's at least one good thing about jazz right?
I like some jazz. I also like some Dixieland.
Good Jazz, to me: Mingus, Coltrane, Miles, Sun Ra, Chet Baker, Billie Holiday.
That is to say, as soon as the 70's happened, the quality of jazz took a steep nosedive. Mostly, I blame Chick Corea and the John McLaughlin.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 11, 2009, 12:15:53 PM
I like the bits in jazz when it's all random and atonal and shit.
But I prefer it when they sample it and apply some breakbeats.
SPEAKING OF
wasn't James Brown jazz?
I mean, HELLO FUNKY DRUMMER BREAK
so that's at least one good thing about jazz right?
You would've loved a "jazz" band I used to be in. It was called Les Trois Etoilles and it was 100% improv. I'm not sure we were technically jazz, though, we were invited to a jazz series at UMaine one year. It certainly was random and atonal at times. How many jazz bands feature cellos, banjos, AND rubber chickens?
It's garbage. 4 different guys playing 4 different songs, in the same room at the same time.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 11, 2009, 12:15:53 PM
wasn't James Brown jazz?
NO. :crankey:
James Brown was Soul/Motown.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 11, 2009, 02:15:34 PM
It's garbage. 4 different guys playing 12 different songs, in the same room at the same time.
Fixed for Ornette Coleman.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 11, 2009, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 11, 2009, 12:15:53 PM
wasn't James Brown jazz?
NO. :crankey:
James Brown was Soul/Motown.
i stand corrected.
and RWHN, I think I would still like it best when it's sampled with electronic beats
We used a vacuum cleaner once. Does that help?
That must have sucked.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 11, 2009, 03:21:15 PM
and RWHN, I think I would still like it best when it's sampled with electronic beats
TITCM. The only reason jazz exists is so that DJ Shadow can scratch over it.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on December 11, 2009, 04:52:48 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 11, 2009, 03:21:15 PM
and RWHN, I think I would still like it best when it's sampled with electronic beats
TITCM. The only reason jazz exists is so that DJ Shadow can scratch over it.
Iason, really... at least Trip Zip has the excuse of being European...
Quote from: Hoopla on December 11, 2009, 05:08:44 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on December 11, 2009, 04:52:48 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 11, 2009, 03:21:15 PM
and RWHN, I think I would still like it best when it's sampled with electronic beats
TITCM. The only reason jazz exists is so that DJ Shadow can scratch over it.
Iason, really... at least Trip Zip has the excuse of being European...
Shit.
That was pretty 'jazz purist' of me, wasn't it?
the only DJ shadow i know is organ donor.
i should DL moar shadow
Quote from: Regret on December 11, 2009, 05:19:57 PM
the only DJ shadow i know is organ donor.
i should DL moar shadow
ENTRODUCING IS THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!!
OF ALL TIME!!!!
I dig the shit out of John Coltrane. Miles Davis has got some moves too.
There's a 30 mile stretch of highway which is between two radio stations. One only plays either jazz chaos or electronica, the other plays classical or NPR news. They fade back and forth with a whisper of radio static. and I've gotta admit this mashup is my favorite radio station of all time.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on December 11, 2009, 08:23:55 PM
ENTRODUCING IS THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!!
OF ALL TIME!!!!
fuck yeah! most def in the top 10
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on December 11, 2009, 08:23:55 PM
ENTRODUCING IS THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!!
OF ALL TIME!!!!
fuck yeah! most def in the top 10
[/quote]
Hmm.....it's THAT good? I'm going to need to do some investimigating.
i am of the opinion that Trevor Dunn's Trio Convulsant (http://www.myspace.com/trioconvulsant) is the correct Jazz-cycle
Jazz is much too large for anybody to make generalizations about it. Doing so is ignorant, and besides: from a pragmatic standpoint, jazz is insanely forward-thinking, and was the driving musical force of the 20th century. So nay, he who defiles its name. :kingmeh:
Go far back enough though, and everything is foward thinking. Farming was once considered cutting edge.
As a jazz newbie, Herbie Hancock's stuff is pretty amazing. It has a lot of funk incorporated into it, and while some of it is pretty chaotic, it still doesn't lose its coherence like some jazz I've heard.
One of my favorites:
http://www.last.fm/music/Herbie+Hancock/_/Hornets (http://www.last.fm/music/Herbie+Hancock/_/Hornets)
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2009, 11:25:48 PM
Go far back enough though, and everything is foward thinking. Farming was once considered cutting edge.
Farming is also a ginormously broad topic that shouldn't be violated by this foul yet wondrous forum.
CROP ROTATION OR GTFO.
DAMN, LOOKIT DAT HOE
(http://www.terifahrendorf.com/TeriFphSite/hoe-1.jpg)
Is there a list of things we shouldn't be violationg?
May I be assured that I'm not on it?
Alty,
kinky like that.
Quote from: typ3 on December 11, 2009, 11:33:31 PM
As a jazz newbie, Herbie Hancock's stuff is pretty amazing. It has a lot of funk incorporated into it, and while some of it is pretty chaotic, it still doesn't lose its coherence like some jazz I've heard.
One of my favorites:
http://www.last.fm/music/Herbie+Hancock/_/Hornets (http://www.last.fm/music/Herbie+Hancock/_/Hornets)
I think Herbie Hancock is bad-ass.
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2009, 11:25:48 PM
Go far back enough though, and everything is foward thinking. Farming was once considered cutting edge.
Damn straight. And I was there! :argh!:
Brotep,
was into farming when it was still underground
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 11, 2009, 02:15:34 PM
It's garbage. 4 different guys playing 4 different songs, in the same room at the same time.
this. any defense of jazz as a form of music is just wanking about wanking.
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 11, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
Jazz is much too large for anybody to make generalizations about it. Doing so is ignorant, and besides: from a pragmatic standpoint, jazz is insanely forward-thinking, and was the driving musical force of the 20th century. So nay, he who defiles its name. :kingmeh:
\
:nigel:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 06:26:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 11, 2009, 02:15:34 PM
It's garbage. 4 different guys playing 4 different songs, in the same room at the same time.
this. any defense of music is just wanking about wanking.
fixed.
:lulz:
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 11, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
Jazz is much too large for anybody to make generalizations about it. Doing so is ignorant, and besides: from a pragmatic standpoint, jazz is insanely forward-thinking, and was the driving musical force of the 20th century. So nay, he who defiles its name. :kingmeh:
I hate jazz, because it sounds like crap. My ass makes more pleasing sounds. When I'm sick.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on December 12, 2009, 09:03:58 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 11, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
Jazz is much too large for anybody to make generalizations about it. Doing so is ignorant, and besides: from a pragmatic standpoint, jazz is insanely forward-thinking, and was the driving musical force of the 20th century. So nay, he who defiles its name. :kingmeh:
I hate jazz, because it sounds like crap. My ass makes more pleasing sounds. When I'm sick.
IAWTC.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on December 12, 2009, 09:03:58 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 11, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
Jazz is much too large for anybody to make generalizations about it. Doing so is ignorant, and besides: from a pragmatic standpoint, jazz is insanely forward-thinking, and was the driving musical force of the 20th century. So nay, he who defiles its name. :kingmeh:
I hate jazz, because it sounds like crap. My ass makes more pleasing sounds. When I'm sick.
Well if we're doing an opinion posts, that's fine and dandy. You may hate it all you like. I was just pointing out, from a logical standpoint, that jazz's music theory is on a higher level of thinking than a lot of music. But other music's also good, of course. I know, this is where I shut up. :|
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 12, 2009, 10:00:07 PMI was just pointing out, from a logical standpoint, that jazz's music theory is on a higher level of thinking than a lot of music.
that seems like an opinion, if you ask me.
also, it can be on a higher level of whatever it wants, it's still noodly wanking crap with an overwrought aversion to melody and song structure.
that's MY opinion.
I bet you listen to NPR and smoke clove cigarettes.
and drive a Volvo.
If you push a piano down a flight of stairs it plays jazz. Not rock, not boogie woogie, not classical but jazz. That should tell you all you need to know about fucking jazz and it's tenuous connection to music :argh!:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 10:03:46 PM
and drive a Volvo.
1. I don't know what NPR or cloves are.
2. I'm 15, and music is about the only thing I excel at
3. Embarrassed to say, my old man has a volvo. But I don't drive it.
Also, I know I'm biased because I like jazz, and I'll admit, some types of it suck. But jazz is a higher level by fact*: 1. Jazz integrates complex chord structures, including altered keys and some chords up to 13ths. 2. Jazz's instrumentation, though previously used, used its instruments in a new context.
*There is still a tad of opinion left within this; if these things aren't enough to convince you, that's fine too. I don't really care, I'm just pointing out, I personally WILL
NOT drive a volvo.
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 12, 2009, 10:20:27 PM
jazz is a higher level by fact*: 1. Jazz integrates complex chord structures, including altered keys and some chords up to 13ths. 2. Jazz's instrumentation, though previously used, used its instruments in a new context.
*There is still a tad of opinion left within this; if these things aren't enough to convince you, that's fine too. I don't really care, I'm just pointing out, I personally WILL NOT drive a volvo.
1. these are qualities (and I use the term loosely) that are not unique to jazz. Go listen to some Dream Theater. Not that they're all that good, but they're not jazz either.
2. Fine, then you'll drive a Prius.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 10:27:53 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 12, 2009, 10:20:27 PM
jazz is a higher level by fact*: 1. Jazz integrates complex chord structures, including altered keys and some chords up to 13ths. 2. Jazz's instrumentation, though previously used, used its instruments in a new context.
*There is still a tad of opinion left within this; if these things aren't enough to convince you, that's fine too. I don't really care, I'm just pointing out, I personally WILL NOT drive a volvo.
1. these are qualities (and I use the term loosely) that are not unique to jazz. Go listen to some Dream Theater. Not that they're all that good, but they're not jazz either.
2. Fine, then you'll drive a Prius.
Or a Subaru Outback.
quote author=Rip City Hustle link=topic=23297.msg792282#msg792282 date=1260656873]
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 12, 2009, 10:20:27 PM
jazz is a higher level by fact*: 1. Jazz integrates complex chord structures, including altered keys and some chords up to 13ths. 2. Jazz's instrumentation, though previously used, used its instruments in a new context.
*There is still a tad of opinion left within this; if these things aren't enough to convince you, that's fine too. I don't really care, I'm just pointing out, I personally WILL NOT drive a volvo.
1. these are qualities (and I use the term loosely) that are not unique to jazz. Go listen to some Dream Theater. Not that they're all that good, but they're not jazz either.
2. Fine, then you'll drive a Prius.
[/quote]
And yes, good observation: There is good music other than jazz. Wow. And yes, music that came after jazz started also has some things that jazz has, too. Double wow. And I don't even drive yet, so it doesn't even matter.
Overall, I'd like to make this resolution: I think that, though many people dislike jazz nowadays, it was very contemporary in its time and still holds musical superiority to many types of music out there (Disney-processed crap, rap [which supposedly stems from jazz], etc.) A lot of this is just opinion, again. additionally, what type of car I will end up driving is inconsequential to this topic. Bleck :horrormirth:.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 10:27:53 PM
2. Fine, then you'll drive a Prius.
\
OK, this I can get behind.
"Jazz holds moral superiority"
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Ok, I get it: I'm kind of a fag. And it's musical superiority, not moral. But my point holds its validity.
not unless your point is that you're not only a snob about music, you're a snob about bad music.
and you totally missed my point about musical complexity, which was that complexity has absolutely ZERO bearing on whether or not music is good.
hence why Dream Theater and jazz, while both technically impressive, are still nothing more than overwrought wankery.
I bet that if you were a metal kid, you'd like Yngwei Malmsteen.
this thread has made me want to listen to miley cyrus....and i dont know why...
Musical Superiority ist WAGNER!!!!!
\\
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00681/adolf-hitler-joke-4_681576c.jpg)
This thread is now about Wagnerian Jazz.
Scat of the Valkyries :evil:
I'm listening to what that would sound like in my head and it sounds awesome. Someone needs to do this.
I got more of a picture of 2 flying chicks and 1 cup but good luck with the music thing
The jazz I got into was all through the burlesque scene, and that stuff was sexy. I still don't know much about jazz in general but that specific niche market is certainly not shit.
Edit: That being said, finding sexy jazz without actively seeking out the niche market is almost impossible.
I like crazy fast jazz but hate the stuff the play on NPR. Overall I don't listen to jazz very often but I do like some of it.
Some Jazz is alright.
But there's one thing I cannot stand
Chuck
Mangione
(http://www.survivinggrady.com/uploaded_images/ChuckMangione-FeelsSoGood-790985.jpg)
:argh!:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 10, 2009, 10:50:02 PM
PD.com: we might not agree on anything, but we all agree that jazz is shit.
I like the jazz*... that is all
*but to be honest it makes me wanna eat. Probably cause I only listen to it during dinner.
Quote from: Pariah? on December 13, 2009, 01:17:36 AM
Some Jazz is alright.
But there's one thing I cannot stand
Chuck
Mangione
(http://www.survivinggrady.com/uploaded_images/ChuckMangione-FeelsSoGood-790985.jpg)
:argh!:
lol my dad loves him
But I say, whatever, at least it's not Sade
The only jazz I can get behind is the cowboy bebop soundracks via the seatbelts, but that's arguably not jazz.
All other is complete crap
I usually don't try to insult a whole genre of music. Much of what you guys listen to I don't listen to, mainly cause I have no experience with it
1) closing yourself off to a whole amount genre of music seems kind of silly to me.
2) much of music is reconnecting yourself with former, or historical events and emotions. So me a question about musical tastes is more of an experiential question then anything.
I would ordinarily agree with you if it weren't for the simple fact that all jazz is crap.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 13, 2009, 02:56:44 AM
I would ordinarily agree with you if it weren't for the simple fact that all jazz is crap.
THIS IS SRS BUISNESS REMEMEBR!!!
:argh!:
In fact this thread is invading my wellness bubble and increasing my bad stress levels. My counseling doctor tells me that to regain my inner spirit I must now listen to 5 hours of soothing wave sounds with my fussy stress bear - Pickles.
Quote from: Brotep on December 13, 2009, 02:05:56 AM
Quote from: Pariah? on December 13, 2009, 01:17:36 AM
Some Jazz is alright.
But there's one thing I cannot stand
Chuck
Mangione
(http://www.survivinggrady.com/uploaded_images/ChuckMangione-FeelsSoGood-790985.jpg)
:argh!:
lol my dad loves him
But I say, whatever, at least it's not Sade
Hey! What the fuck is wrong with Sade?
nothing, as long as you can overlook her being basically the female Kenny G.
:pokewithstick:
...With better hair and a nicer ass.
LMNO
-know what music he would rather fuck to.
that's sort of like me saying I'd rather eat my poop than your poop.
I mean, either way...
I like jazz more than most music, simply because it's the roots of a lot of modern music.
That said, most music people know as jazz is either best listened to in the spirit of Merzbow, or listened to while passed out cold.
I prefer me some big band jazz. Horn sections the size of a third world country? Fuck yeah.
cavemen thumping on shit with old bones is the roots of all music, but that doesn't mean I wanna listen to some goddamn hippie drum circle.
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 03:39:11 AM
Hey! What the fuck is wrong with Sade?
All her songs sound the same. And not in the "hey, all this person's songs sound like they're part of a larger song--but it's a good song, whatever it is" kind of way.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 13, 2009, 02:56:44 AM
I would ordinarily agree with you if it weren't for the simple fact that all jazz is crap.
This, except the complete opposite
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 11:02:36 PM
not unless your point is that you're not only a snob about music, you're a snob about bad music.
and you totally missed my point about musical complexity, which was that complexity has absolutely ZERO bearing on whether or not music is good.
hence why Dream Theater and jazz, while both technically impressive, are still nothing more than overwrought wankery.
I bet that if you were a metal kid, you'd like Yngwei Malmsteen.
I'm not trying to be a snob about anything. And not all jazz is complex, and I still like that. I'm simply pointing out, to utterly discredit jazz is ignorant as hell.
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
I intend to pioneer Viking Jazz one day.
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 13, 2009, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 11:02:36 PM
not unless your point is that you're not only a snob about music, you're a snob about bad music.
and you totally missed my point about musical complexity, which was that complexity has absolutely ZERO bearing on whether or not music is good.
hence why Dream Theater and jazz, while both technically impressive, are still nothing more than overwrought wankery.
I bet that if you were a metal kid, you'd like Yngwei Malmsteen.
I'm not trying to be a snob about anything. And not all jazz is complex, and I still like that. I'm simply pointing out, to utterly discredit jazz is ignorant as hell.
and I'm simply pointing out that saying things like "from a logical standpoint, jazz is blah blah blah wankety wank..." is ignorant as hell, and makes you sound like a dweeb.
now shut up and go ride your Segway.
I'm going to go copy & paste the OP on TCC.
Ok, This Is My Name, here's the deal.
The only thing that separates Jazz from other forms of music is that some coked-out intellectual decided to over-analyze the music and create a shit-ton of rules for it, and then codify the structure.
If you listen to a toothless Applalachian play, you're going to find incredibly strange chords and melodies. But for some reason, only jazz musicians are allowed to call their note clusters "A minor 9 aug 6" and think that they've actually said something.
Or, take for example The Shaggs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9UT2zF8c8). I challenge you to analyze that song using standard Western jazz notation and then tell me it's not as complex or as challenging as anything Anthony Braxton ever came up with.
You seem to be saying that, because it does not have the addition of a symbolic meta-language, non-jazz contemporary music is somehow a lesser art form.
It's all a sham, a smoke screen to keep jazz on some ivory pedestal. Trust me, I studied jazz theory for 6 years-- the breaking point was when we were asked to "analyze" a Thelonious Monk solo where he made a fist and jabbed his knuckles into the keyboard several times. I naturally stated that it could only be notated as "Note clusters centered around C#, E, and G", but the teacher insisted that we treat them as actual "chords", and find the precise logical relations and connections to the II-V-I progression.
In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
I was gonna say, this thread is a mixture of arguments between e-prime and r-prime, and I've been laughing the whole way.
The truth is, I really enjoy Bukka White, Lead Belly, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Django Reinhardt, and yes, I do listen to John McLaughlin, not his electric guitar stuff, but the acoustic stuff he did with Al Di Meola and Paco De Lucia. The correct r-prime is, I like this shit, I don't have to explain why to any person anymore than you have to explain why you like sticking cucumbers up your ass. It's my preference, I like it, and if you don't you can fuck off and listen to whatever purist drivel you masturbate to. Fuckers.
Bukka White and Leadbelly are jazz?
Incidentally, both are fantastic musicians.
Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:37:26 PM
Bukka White and Leadbelly are jazz?
Incidentally, both are fantastic musicians.
Sorta the precursors to jazz as my jazz history professor described it. But jazz is an arbitrary designation so the fuck if it matters. Some people happened to make some music I like, and I listen to it, and the fuck if I care what anyone thinks about it. Hell, I listen to Kenny G and like it. I may be tasteless in others eyes but my listening habits don't require you to listen to the same.
Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:07:32 PM
Ok, This Is My Name, here's the deal.
The only thing that separates Jazz from other forms of music is that some coked-out intellectual decided to over-analyze the music and create a shit-ton of rules for it, and then codify the structure.
If you listen to a toothless Applalachian play, you're going to find incredibly strange chords and melodies. But for some reason, only jazz musicians are allowed to call their note clusters "A minor 9 aug 6" and think that they've actually said something.
Or, take for example The Shaggs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9UT2zF8c8). I challenge you to analyze that song using standard Western jazz notation and then tell me it's not as complex or as challenging as anything Anthony Braxton ever came up with.
You seem to be saying that, because it does not have the addition of a symbolic meta-language, non-jazz contemporary music is somehow a lesser art form.
It's all a sham, a smoke screen to keep jazz on some ivory pedestal. Trust me, I studied jazz theory for 6 years-- the breaking point was when we were asked to "analyze" a Thelonious Monk solo where he made a fist and jabbed his knuckles into the keyboard several times. I naturally stated that it could only be notated as "Note clusters centered around C#, E, and G", but the teacher insisted that we treat them as actual "chords", and find the precise logical relations and connections to the II-V-I progression.
In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.
100% troof!
Lets face it Jazz is no different from any and all other genres of music - one or two fucking amazing, genre defining acts, hundreds of okay followers and millions of really shitty bandwagon jumpers. Like all other genres it ends up dominated by the shitty contingent and, ultimately, this puts people off it.
Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:07:32 PM
Ok, This Is My Name, here's the deal.
The only thing that separates Jazz from other forms of music is that some coked-out intellectual decided to over-analyze the music and create a shit-ton of rules for it, and then codify the structure.
If you listen to a toothless Applalachian play, you're going to find incredibly strange chords and melodies. But for some reason, only jazz musicians are allowed to call their note clusters "A minor 9 aug 6" and think that they've actually said something.
Or, take for example The Shaggs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9UT2zF8c8). I challenge you to analyze that song using standard Western jazz notation and then tell me it's not as complex or as challenging as anything Anthony Braxton ever came up with.
You seem to be saying that, because it does not have the addition of a symbolic meta-language, non-jazz contemporary music is somehow a lesser art form.
It's all a sham, a smoke screen to keep jazz on some ivory pedestal. Trust me, I studied jazz theory for 6 years-- the breaking point was when we were asked to "analyze" a Thelonious Monk solo where he made a fist and jabbed his knuckles into the keyboard several times. I naturally stated that it could only be notated as "Note clusters centered around C#, E, and G", but the teacher insisted that we treat them as actual "chords", and find the precise logical relations and connections to the II-V-I progression.
In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people. I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz. I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 14, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people. I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz. I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.
It doesn't. Someone prepared to defend it's honor to the death, however? That's too fucking good to pass up :evil:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 14, 2009, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 14, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people. I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz. I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.
It doesn't. Someone prepared to defend it's honor to the death, however? That's too fucking good to pass up :evil:
This. Welcome to PD.com, where we poke because the sticks are, like, just
laying there.
:pokewithstick:
:awesome:
Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 10:37:05 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 14, 2009, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: ThisIsMyName.StopAsking on December 14, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
I'm sorry this has gone on so long, I must sound like one of those "mod-art jazz chic" people. I agree, other styles of music can achieve complexity and deserve the same recognition as jazz. I just don't think that makes jazz deserving of such harshness.
It doesn't. Someone prepared to defend it's honor to the death, however? That's too fucking good to pass up :evil:
This. Welcome to PD.com, where we poke because the sticks are, like, just laying there.
:pokewithstick:
I feel at home here now. :horrormirth:
Quote from: LMNO on December 14, 2009, 01:07:32 PM
In short, it's the Law of Fives as it relates to sound.
I hate you sometimes :lulz:
Lead Belly is a lot of things, but he sure as shit ain't jazz.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 14, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
Lead Belly is a lot of things, but he sure as shit ain't jazz.
Blues then. You fuckers and your fucking labels.
Ah, I missed the discussion. Well, I don't favor jazz over any other music, I don't favor any genres (for the most part). As I see it, all music just follows gradual trends. Jazz is no exception. It's part of a trend and constitutes a trend itself. I like a lot of it, don't like a lot of it. Meh. :kingmeh:
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
What's wrong with metal?
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
You sure you aren't trollin? :p
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
Dubbstep.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2009, 04:17:56 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
Dubbstep.
:lol: I have friends that listen to dubstep.
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 15, 2009, 04:18:57 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2009, 04:17:56 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
Dubbstep.
:lol: I have friends that listen to dubstep.
Get better friends. Those ones are no good.
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 15, 2009, 04:18:57 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2009, 04:17:56 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
Dubbstep.
:lol: I have friends that listen to dubstep.
Bullshit! No one listens to dubstep unless they are in a club hopped up on X.
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 15, 2009, 04:16:22 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
You sure you aren't trollin? :p
depends....can you be trolling and still believe 100% in what you're saying?
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on December 15, 2009, 03:45:19 AM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
What's wrong with metal?
the only thing wrong with metal is that it sometimes gets used erroneously to describe bands like Evanescence or 3 Days Grace or Nightwish.
My list of the worst is topped by Chinese opera, smooth jazz and new country.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 06:09:42 AM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on December 15, 2009, 03:45:19 AM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
What's wrong with metal?
the only thing wrong with metal is that it sometimes gets used erroneously to describe bands like Evanescence or 3 Days Grace or Nightwish.
There is that. I just can't figure out what Faust meant by it being the anime of music. :?
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on December 15, 2009, 06:17:30 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 06:09:42 AM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on December 15, 2009, 03:45:19 AM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
What's wrong with metal?
the only thing wrong with metal is that it sometimes gets used erroneously to describe bands like Evanescence or 3 Days Grace or Nightwish.
There is that. I just can't figure out what Faust meant by it being the anime of music. :?
Faust is Irish, and as such cannot be held accountable for much of what he says. It's the Guinness. Gives 'em bubbles in the brain.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 02:32:27 AM
jazz is still even more 100% utter crap than any other musical genre I can think of.
except for maybe J-pop.
I can enjoy a .. few, two or three .. Pizzicato Five tracks, in moderation. I can listen to Jazz longer without going batshit insane, so yes, I think J-Pop is slightly worse :-)
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on December 15, 2009, 03:45:19 AM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
What's wrong with metal?
Nothing. But I'm biased of course being a big metal fan. And while there certainly some very superficial metal bands, there are also many metal bands who truly do make an art-form of the genre. I can think of a band like Death, who managed to incorporate some free-form jazz patterns into the genre of death metal and make some very interesting music. Then you see the folk-metal genre and a band like Eluveitie who blend traditional Celtic music, with traditional Celtic instruments, with melodic death metal and again make something very unique and powerful.
But any genre is like this. You have the good and the bad. It's easy to use the bad to generalize the rest of the genre, but I think it's like LMNO posited. Law of Fives. If you want to find reasons to condemn a music genre, you will find them.
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on December 15, 2009, 03:45:19 AM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 13, 2009, 02:24:02 PM
If nothing else, this thread proves that R-Prime statements about jazz are a troll's goldmine.
True, additionally metal is the anime of music
What's wrong with metal?
Its only enjoyable on an ironic level.
Nah nothing really, people were talking about jazz as a vehicle for trolling a music discussion, so I left a bear trap out.
^Here we see the metal drummer in his natural habitat, ironically enjoying his craft
(not shown is the 16th note kick drum assault)
you know, jazz would be slightly more tolerable if it used blastbeats more.
Cf: Buddy Rich, Ginger Baker.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 05:15:30 PM
you know, jazz would be slightly more tolerable if it used blastbeats breakbeats more.
:wink:
Do You Know Squarepusher? ;-)
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2009, 05:18:51 PM
Ginger Baker.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 15, 2009, 07:00:53 PM
Do You Know Squarepusher? ;-)
I never thought of either of these as being jazz, but if they are then I am willing to concede that there may be jazz that doesn't totally suck provided it utilizes blastbeats and/or breakbeats.
Baker did a few jazz albums with Charlie Hayden and Bill Frisell. Most of what he does can be considered wanking rock, though.
not that rock isn't wanking, but I'm amused that you could consider it MORE wanky than jazz.
:lulz:
It's hard to get wankier than rock at its worst. Seriously.
A good chunk of jazz is the musical equivalent of trash talking:
"Fuck you, your song sounds like 'Pop Goes the Weasel'"
:argh!: I enjoy a lot of jazz and metal.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 12, 2009, 11:02:36 PM
not unless your point is that you're not only a snob about music, you're a snob about bad music.
and you totally missed my point about musical complexity, which was that complexity has absolutely ZERO bearing on whether or not music is good.
hence why Dream Theater and jazz, while both technically impressive, are still nothing more than overwrought wankery.
I bet that if you were a metal kid, you'd like Yngwei Malmsteen.
Yngwie Malmsteen is pretty good.
Also a lot of good metal has strong jazz influence. What comes to mind for me is Gorguts and Cryptopsy, both pretty good technical death
metal from Quebec, but there are a lot of examples. Metal and Jazz share something else too, which is a large intelligence gap between musician and fan. I dont know, I think jazz is pretty good, and I like what I like.
Which is post ww2 bebop, right after the big gap that followed big band.
My favorites are Art Blakey & Max Roach.
yeah, well, I'm not gonna argue with you because it's no fun to troll you
:argh!:
I like jazz, dubstep (I can provide examples of good dubstep, too! I'm serious!), metal, J-pop, and any other genre you care to name. I only hate one band, and that is Enter Shikari. I hate Enter Shikari because they manage to take every genre I got into music with, and make it somehow suck so horribly even -I- hate it.
Also, Roger, if you hate dubstep, you will never get over this stuff called illbient.
On the subject of good dubstep... Look for Loefah's "Indian Dub". I'd give a Youtube but it only has the godawful Skream remix. If you like the harsher stuff, look no further than Roguestar's Stay Calm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqEzqo__DBc&fmt=18 (Skip to :30 to avoid a long and shitty intro.)
And if you like stuff that's simply insane... http://new.music.yahoo.com/kraddy/tracks/godzilla--177456993 This song will give you enough to never stop laughing again. EDIT WRONG SONG LOOKING AGAIN.EDIT IT'S GONE FROM THE INTERNET. THE SONG I WAS THINKING OF HAD WACKY JAPANESE SINGING AND WEIRDNESS AND I CANNOT FIND IT. SORRY.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 15, 2009, 07:00:53 PM
Do You Know Squarepusher? ;-)
yessssssssssssssssssssssssss
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Quote from: Brotep on December 16, 2009, 09:26:21 AM
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
check out "Hard Normal Daddy"
E8 BOOGIE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBgn8QxYB6U (sound quality is pretty horrible btw, especially the crashes)
be sure to turn it up for the jaw dropping solo at 1:30
I have no idea if it's jazz btw, dunno what's the definition. But it is some guy doing absolutely crazy (and I assume improv too) stuff on his bass guitar, and I believe jazz has that too.
And uh, I can't really recommend the album "Do You Know Squarepusher", it's (IMO) one of the lesser accessible and more abstract and electronic albums, his older stuff is also more into the drum'nbass/glitchcore electronica [which are awesome in their own ways], but fortunately the newer albums (after "Do You Know Squarepusher") go back to the "Hard Normal Daddy" style bass guitar jams, but this time with a good dose of electronic bleeps and breaks too.
one more track, also with an awesome Chris Cunningham video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEb2FrQUbE
AND ONE MROE BECAUSE YAY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-pyIezB33c
Hard Normal Daddy is one of the albums I have on my phone.
Sometimes I listen to it on my way to work.
Also, in this vein, the Venetian Snares are good.
Also, heheh, what is dubstep?
I wouldn't really call Venetian Snares good like Squarepusher.
From VSnares I often get the impression he's just trying to make as much godawful noises in order to torture people's ears.
While Squarepusher, he does descend into the wall of sound noise once in a while, but he always does it for effect. After a proper buildup, etc. While I'm pretty sure VSnares must have thought to himself sometimes "wow people pay money to listen to this???".
Also I generally don't like Venetian Snares cause he was a complete dick to the audience when I saw him perform. After no more than 30-45 minutes of godawful earshattering (yay I paid for eardamage :-( ) audio turbopoop with hardly any structure or even recognizable bits from his albums--while drinking fucking Bacardi Breezers--or any performance at all (a tiny recorder, nothing more, I think he was pretending to twiddle some knobs cause there wasn't really much to the device to control), the fucking cunt had the balls to just sit down on the stage, behind the table-stand on which his recorder was still producing noises, with his back to the fucking audience, and light a joint. Cuz he was in the Netherlands, and you can do that shit, you know?
No, seriously, fuck Venetian Snares. I agree a few of his tracks are pretty cool, but after that "performance", fuck him.
Now Squarepusher, when my brother saw him live, at one point mr Jenkinson sat with with his legs over the stage, facing the audience, and started jamming the fuck out of his bass-guitar. Now that is cool.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 09:54:08 PM
not that rock isn't wanking, but I'm amused that you could consider it MORE wanky than jazz.
:lulz:
Pick up Cream's
Wheel of Fire, and listen to "Toad".
13 minute drum solo? I'd rather listen to jazz.
For me, music either has soul or it doesn't. It doesn't matter what the genre is. What matters for me, as a music fan, is that I can feel that the musician is feeling it. It's why I like a prog-metal band like Fates Warning and not a prog-metal band like Dream Theater. FW, to me, has some soul to go along with their technical prowess. Dream Theater is just trying to blow everyone away with music theory. I think you can probably find bands in pretty much any genre where there is some obvious feeling and soul being put into the music. It's coming from something inside. It isn't paint-by-numbers. And this is true for Jazz as well. And I think it comes down to the fact that, for whatever reason, some musicians just can't tap into that. They can play lights-out technically, but they can never get the notes and rhythms coming out of their instruments to have any kind of depth to them. As a musician, I have the opposite problem. I've got plenty of soul, I just need some better chops.
If you got soul but no chops, play music that doesn't need chops.
LMNO
-started drums by playing punk rock for a reason.
I used to have chops. Trumpet chops. 8 years of living in apartments with paper thin walls trashes that all to hell right quick. Once you lose you're lip it's really hard to get it back. But yeah, I know what you're saying.
I was a trumpet player, too. 9 years. I switched to drums because I was much better at it.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 16, 2009, 02:22:16 PM
I used to have chops. Trumpet chops. 8 years of living in apartments with paper thin walls trashes that all to hell right quick. Once you lose you're lip it's really hard to get it back. But yeah, I know what you're saying.
I used to play trombone, way back in middle school and elementary school. I miss it...
You mean, you let it slide?
wah, wah, wah......
I don't get the comparison of rock and jazz to wanking. Isn't it obvious that all music is wanking?
Quote from: LMNO on December 16, 2009, 01:54:55 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 15, 2009, 09:54:08 PM
not that rock isn't wanking, but I'm amused that you could consider it MORE wanky than jazz.
:lulz:
Pick up Cream's Wheel of Fire, and listen to "Toad".
13 minute drum solo? I'd rather listen to jazz.
point conceded :lulz:
also...
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 16, 2009, 02:12:25 PM
For me, music either has soul or it doesn't. It doesn't matter what the genre is. What matters for me, as a music fan, is that I can feel that the musician is feeling it. It's why I like a prog-metal band like Fates Warning and not a prog-metal band like Dream Theater. FW, to me, has some soul to go along with their technical prowess. Dream Theater is just trying to blow everyone away with music theory.
THIS. I can tell when a guitar player is "getting it" or when he can just play alot of notes really fast.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 16, 2009, 10:07:55 AM
Quote from: Brotep on December 16, 2009, 09:26:21 AM
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
check out "Hard Normal Daddy"
E8 BOOGIE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBgn8QxYB6U (sound quality is pretty horrible btw, especially the crashes)
be sure to turn it up for the jaw dropping solo at 1:30
I have no idea if it's jazz btw, dunno what's the definition. But it is some guy doing absolutely crazy (and I assume improv too) stuff on his bass guitar, and I believe jazz has that too.
And uh, I can't really recommend the album "Do You Know Squarepusher", it's (IMO) one of the lesser accessible and more abstract and electronic albums, his older stuff is also more into the drum'nbass/glitchcore electronica [which are awesome in their own ways], but fortunately the newer albums (after "Do You Know Squarepusher") go back to the "Hard Normal Daddy" style bass guitar jams, but this time with a good dose of electronic bleeps and breaks too.
one more track, also with an awesome Chris Cunningham video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEb2FrQUbE
AND ONE MROE BECAUSE YAY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-pyIezB33c
Haha, Come On My Selector has an awesome video.
This music is pretty great for typing shit up like I am right now, by the way.
Quote from: RWHNFor me, music either has soul or it doesn't.
Incidentally, this is one of the main problems I have with J-Pop.
Quote from: RCHTHIS. I can tell when a guitar player is "getting it" or when he can just play alot of notes really fast.
Yeah, this is one of the reasons I got pissed off when I was learning harmonica and people demanded that I play Blues Traveler songs. Yes, John Popper can play really fucking fast. No, I couldn't play that fast. But, he doesn't play with soul. If you're not savoring the notes as you play them, the product is little more than diarrhea.
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 16, 2009, 10:00:37 PM
I don't get the comparison of rock and jazz to wanking. Isn't it obvious that all music is wanking?
No. Unless you count the Ramones using 4 chords in a song, instead of 3, wanking.
Howabout the Ramones using a Glockenspiel?
Hmm, that might be wanking.
Lucky for them, it was in a damn good song ("Bonzo Goes to Bitburg/My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down").
I don't think I've heard that one. Time to go YouTubing.
ETA: Okay, that's a fucking good song. I really need to get more Ramones in my music collection.
You really only need 3 albums, Ramones, Rocket to Russia and Animal Boy.
Actually, you probably only really need Ramones Mania, but there are a few B-sides and also-rans I like on the albums themselves ("Havana Affair" is probably one of the best-least-known Ramones songs off the first album).
Quote from: LMNO on December 17, 2009, 02:04:16 PM
Lucky for them, it was in a damn good song ("Bonzo Goes to Bitburg/My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down").
their best song, by far (somebody put something in my drink is a sorta close second).
my old band used to cover that one.
sadly, it was more popular than most of our original songs.