ATTN: Ratatosk, and assorted others

[Cain]

NT, that sounds about right, thanks for the clarifying info.

In that case, I can't see it having a massive effect, as per what RWHN said in response to me.  In Europe, drinking and smoking ages are generally 2-3 years lower, and in those few areas where drugs are legal, similar age restrictions seem to apply.  Plus there is also the cultural difference, most evident in the Mediterranean countries, where alcohol is often slowly introduced at home from the early teens, if not younger, which seems to help people take a more moderate approach than in the Northern European states (and UK and USA).

So even if the ages were reduced to be in line with those of Europe, that cultural difference in dealing with narcotic substances may still have an effect.

[AFK]

What I'm hearing from RWHN is that while it isn't possible to keep all kids away from all drugs, the more kids you can keep away from most drugs will result in fewer casualties.

The intelligent kids will always be intelligent kids, but there will be fewer burnouts.  And isn't that a good thing?

Pretty much.  Let's put this into discordian terms.  I see drug use by adolescents as destructive disorder.  Some will see it as creative disorder.  The problem is that it can become a crutch.  The adolescent feels they need the drug to tap into an alternate reality.  To tap into a feeling that makes them forget a bd feeling.  It quickly becomes a way of postponing and putting off dealing with emotions and issues.  Add to that the issue of state dependent learning.  That is what happens when kids study and learn while high.  Eventually, the brain becomes dependent on that state and the only way for the kid to recall what they've learned is to be drunk or high.  Now, if you are a kid who is under constant stress from parents or yourself to get straight A's, you can see how quickly that develops into a dependency or issue of addiction.  And I think we all know how many kids are put under that stress to succeed.  

And yes, we can't keep all kids from doing drugs and that has never been the goal.  It's all about working with the margins.  Decreasing my 2 or 3% a year.  Hell, for my grant we are only aiming for a 15% decrease over 4 years.  That doesn't amount to that many kids.  But, it will dramatically improve the lives of those few kids.  

[Nephew Twiddleton]

NT, that sounds about right, thanks for the clarifying info.

In that case, I can't see it having a massive effect, as per what RWHN said in response to me.  In Europe, drinking and smoking ages are generally 2-3 years lower, and in those few areas where drugs are legal, similar age restrictions seem to apply.  Plus there is also the cultural difference, most evident in the Mediterranean countries, where alcohol is often slowly introduced at home from the early teens, if not younger, which seems to help people take a more moderate approach than in the Northern European states (and UK and USA).

So even if the ages were reduced to be in line with those of Europe, that cultural difference in dealing with narcotic substances may still have an effect.

I just got a funny image of an Italian family slowly introducing a post dinner joint to their kids as they grow older, vs. an English family going, "Roight, yer 18 now. Oi'm gunna get you good and fucked up on quality weed, son!"

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well... this conversation is like a constant repeat

So, my thoughts:

1. I think most monkeys survive ok. I don't particularly agree with the dominant view here that humans are barely capable of walking and breathing at the same time or are somehow unable to act outside of their programming. That's just not my trip. I think that people are people and most of the time they do what they do to exist, survive, or enjoy whatever they think life is. All ya all with Spiders and Shrapnel and Prisons may see it that way, but it doesn't jive with my experiences. Sure, I'm an optimistic idiot who read too much Wilson and friends, but really, I think Bars and walls and shrapnel are useful tools for looking at ourselves and our automated responses so we can more easily change... but I don't think they are the things that run/control human existence... knowing about the concept might help you be less of a Cosmic Schmuck, sometimes... but there are plenty of humans who are doing OK without the metaphors. Just because we can change our cell, just because there is a Golden Sphere of Possibility, it doesn't mean that those who don't play with it are robots under the control of Spiders, Machines or Prison Guards. Sometimes, I think the metaphor gets confused with the reality.

2. I dunno about the area of the country that RWHN lives in, but here, I've been told by minors that Pot is very easy to get, far easier than alcohol. This appears to be because some (many?) drug dealers don't give a fuck about your State ID or the law. Currently, all of my contacts in Columbus are dry. A friend, however, found a quarter of hydro in her son's room last weekend. I haven't seen hydro in six weeks.

3. I agree 100% with RWHN's views about the dangers of kids smoking pot. People that I've met who tell me that they were a stoner in high school almost never turn out as a responsible, fully functional adult with no side issues. (Though maybe this is because if you're doing drugs at 13, something is terribly wrong in your life to begin with, or maybe because the normal ones don't go bragging about smoking pot at 13, I dunno.) HOWEVER, and this is a big one, I find RWHN's view of adult usage to be so far outside of my experience that I doubt the validity of the data he bases his opinions on. To presume that an adult that smokes pot needs counciling seems absurd in the extreme. I have many friends that are stoners. All of them are gainfully employed, most are happily married/dating/engaged, all of them have active social lives. I can think of four people who are in management positions, four who deal with IT support, security, architecture, programming etc. one who deals in international facility implementations for a major corporation and none who act like Harold, Kumar, Jay, Silent Bob or any other Hollywood caricature  of pot smokers. Some have 'American' goals (Family, House, Car etc), some have social goals (have fun, enjoy life, don't get tied down with mortgages), some work just enough to pay the bills and others are 10 hours at the office kind of people... just like the rest of the planet. Presuming that they need help seems absurd to me and smacks of the psychology of any dogmatic belief system.

4. Legality. We've had the debate of politics many times and my views of what a government should/should not do has been stated before. Legal or not legal doesn't stop me from choosing my own actions, but as a citizen of this country, in my opinion, the drug war is a waste of time and money, the prohibition of pot appears to be based on bad information and scare tactics of previous administrations and I have yet to see any convincing argument for it to be continued. Given the easy access for kids NOW, I find it stretches credulity to argue that it will be 'more available' if its legal. Well, I am wrong, actually... there certainly could be SOME instances where a kid that normally wouldn't smoke might steal his Dad's pack of joints or whatever... but there would be many fewer illegal sources to purchase from so that may well balance out. HOWEVER, "some kid might do it" still doesn't seem like an acceptable argument for Federal laws concerning marijuana use for adults. We have adult only beverages, tobacco products, movies, peep shows, porn stores, websites and clubs... our society accepts that things can be legal for adults and illegal for kids. As pot appears to be less risky than sex, alcohol or tobacco... the argument sounds absurd.

5. All that being said, I think kids shouldn't do drugs and if pot were legal, I would support redirecting that drug war money into education, support and counciling for kids AND any adults that felt that they needed it (or were found naked on top of a windmill, with candy bar wrappers in between their toes... they probably need some help).

However, I still like RWHN and thinks he's a hip frood... just disagree vehemently on this one topic.

[Doktor Howl]

I don't particularly agree with the dominant view here that humans are barely capable of walking and breathing at the same time or are somehow unable to act outside of their programming.

Just who the FUCK said that?

Oh, well, back to deliberately misunderstanding shit, I guess.

[Zyzyx]

As far as the wacky weed is concerned, I think it's just another form of racial profiling, dating from the 'sixties.

AS IN, another excuse to arrest the brown people. Like peyote with the native american church. I'm no lawyer, though.

[AFK]

As far as the wacky weed is concerned, I think it's just another form of racial profiling, dating from the 'sixties.

AS IN, another excuse to arrest the brown people. Like peyote with the native american church. I'm no lawyer, though.

I think it could be used as racial profiling, but I don't think it is correct to say it is intrinsically motivated by race.  Now, where there were racial imbalances with drug enforcement was in the difference in sentencing guidelines between crack and powder cocaine.  It wasn't a one-to-one ratio as it should be.  People caught in posession of crack were getting a sentence that in some cases I think was something like 5 to 1, maybe even as much as 10 to 1. And of course what we see is that, roughly speaking, crack is a black drug and powder cocaine is a white drug.  Thankfully, this was recently amended to make it more even and fair. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't particularly agree with the dominant view here that humans are barely capable of walking and breathing at the same time or are somehow unable to act outside of their programming.

Just who the FUCK said that?

Oh, well, back to deliberately misunderstanding shit, I guess.

LRN to DEAL WITH HYPERBOLE.

Off the cuff comment, not deep dissertation of philosophy.

As far as the wacky weed is concerned, I think it's just another form of racial profiling, dating from the 'sixties.

AS IN, another excuse to arrest the brown people. Like peyote with the native american church. I'm no lawyer, though.

I think it could be used as racial profiling, but I don't think it is correct to say it is intrinsically motivated by race.  Now, where there were racial imbalances with drug enforcement was in the difference in sentencing guidelines between crack and powder cocaine.  It wasn't a one-to-one ratio as it should be.  People caught in posession of crack were getting a sentence that in some cases I think was something like 5 to 1, maybe even as much as 10 to 1. And of course what we see is that, roughly speaking, crack is a black drug and powder cocaine is a white drug.  Thankfully, this was recently amended to make it more even and fair. 

I think Zyzyx was referencing the early application of marijuana prohibition which according to many accounts appeared to heavily affect Blacks and Hispanics. There are many arguments that the original reason for the prohibition was specifically to cause problems for minorities. Of course, there are also arguments that it was the tobacco cartel, or the paper business or the... ya know how it goes.

Out of all the arguments, the racially motivated one does appear to have more circumstantial evidence than the others.

[AFK]

I don't think it was the original motivation, but I do see how today it can be used in that manner.  I'm thinking particularily in Arizona with their new papers-please law.  I think probably anyone with a brown skin tone in that area wants to make sure they are always wide awake and alert when they are out and about, otherwise, a less than honest police officer could Lo5 it into appearing stoned and use that as the shoehorn to ask for papers, etc.,

[Cain]

Most laws are usually passed because they please multiple constituencies.  Racism certainly isn't the whole reason for various drug laws, but it is still a very real facet of it.  Flooding the hood with crack (which, I'm sure we all agree now, was facilitated by certain US govt agencies) and pot not only kills off minorities and getting them fighting each other for profit instead of their mutual enemies, but also gives certain enforcement agencies, in the eyes of the average suburban voter, due cause to go in heavily armed and crack heads on occasion.  I believe this is called "getting tough on crime", though if that were the real concern they'd probably just raid the nearest bank.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't think it was the original motivation, but I do see how today it can be used in that manner.  I'm thinking particularily in Arizona with their new papers-please law.  I think probably anyone with a brown skin tone in that area wants to make sure they are always wide awake and alert when they are out and about, otherwise, a less than honest police officer could Lo5 it into appearing stoned and use that as the shoehorn to ask for papers, etc.,

Harry Anslinger was a pretty horrible person by most accounts.
(Some select quotes attributed to him)

"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."

   "...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."

   "Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

   "Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."

   "Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"

   "You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."

   "Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."

Other examples of similar thinking:

When Montana outlawed marijuana in 1927, the Butte Montana Standard reported a legislator's comment: "When some beet field peon takes a few traces of this stuff... he thinks he has just been elected president of Mexico, so he starts out to execute all his political enemies." In Texas, a senator said on the floor of the Senate: "All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff [marijuana] is what makes them crazy."

as newspapers in 1934 editorialized: "Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice."

In all honesty, based on the scientific evidence of the time, versus the racial scaremongering... it seems unlikely that the prohibition was based on sound medical council... what was it based on? Maybe racial issues, maybe anti-hemp corporations, maybe the insanity of the temperance movement... but I have yet to come across sane medical reasons from the early 1900's when prohibition began. Thus, many pro-pot people claim (perhaps falsely I dunno) that pot prohibition was directly tied to racism.

[AFK]

I can only speak for myself and the prevention movement here in Maine, but now, it is based upon brain research and research on adolescent development.  And of course, Maine is 97-98% white.  A lot of the 2-3% of minorities is made up of refugee immigrants most of whom don't use marijuana but use native drugs like khat.  And the prevention movement here in Maine is largely made up of liberals and liberal-minded individuals.  So it's really about the kids here. 

[Doktor Howl]

I can only speak for myself and the prevention movement here in Maine, but now, it is based upon brain research and research on adolescent development.  And of course, Maine is 97-98% white.  A lot of the 2-3% of minorities is made up of refugee immigrants most of whom don't use marijuana but use native drugs like khat.  And the prevention movement here in Maine is largely made up of liberals and liberal-minded individuals.  So it's really about the kids here. 

Sure, and that's great.  But as has been pointed out, illegal dealers don't card.

Personally, I don't think anyone should be using any substance until they're of voting age.  I'd prefer 21, but if you're old enough to get shot in service to America™, you're old enough to make your own decisions.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I can only speak for myself and the prevention movement here in Maine, but now, it is based upon brain research and research on adolescent development.  And of course, Maine is 97-98% white.  A lot of the 2-3% of minorities is made up of refugee immigrants most of whom don't use marijuana but use native drugs like khat.  And the prevention movement here in Maine is largely made up of liberals and liberal-minded individuals.  So it's really about the kids here. 

Of course! I wasn't trying to tar you with that brush!!

I was just providing the background on the comment by Zyzyx "I think it's just another form of racial profiling, dating from the 'sixties." (pre-sixties actually but... there ya go)