Messages

  Naw, I'm just laughing at the kneejerk reactionary calling me out on my own kneejerkiness. 

LOL

I can't be high while I work...won't function half as well or get paid half as much.

I quoted what you said--it's there in blue and white and black...*shrug*  You called everyone ITT that said the puppy thrower = big, fat jerk (I'm PARAPHRASING) a kneejerk reactionary. 

I said it was very easy to kneejerk... I was pointing out that there may be a lot more going on.  If that wasn't so hard for people to swallow then this thread wouldn't have gotten so long.

You can call an action wrong without turning the main issue (which seems less and less to be about abuse of animals and more and more to be about abusive soldiers) into a black and white, do or die mechanism (had to add that last, that's what I get for multi-tasking).

Hmmm, not the way it seemed to read... but I'll let it go.

For someone who walks away from an argument, you shore do stick around and talk alot, thar, Fing Feng...

I just couldn't resist your charms, what can I say...

k, Beer ? 


~Fing Feng III

"... forget the puppyhunt, just get the damn flag up"

I got to stop watching threads or I'll keep getting pulled back in, like now...

YOU took the stance towards ME first on the "you can't say this is bullshit til you've dealt with it firsthand"

Actually, you basically jumped in and said I was talking complete bullshit... I then note that you then went on to agree with most of it accept the fact that I thought it wasn't necessarily a black and white issue... which again, you then appear to sort of agree on.

No, see, there's a deeper level to my meaning:  I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong.

Again, I never said the act wasn't 'wrong'... I just said that it is indicative of a recognised phenomenon which I'd expect at least a passing nod to.

Later in this very post you contradict this and go on to state that this is NOT a 'right/wrong' issue.  Do you see how confusing you're being ?

I admit there's a problem with the moral compass of some of the guys coming back form the war--that's expected to a large fucking degree.

And if it is expected, then we should at least attempt to account for it.  And, no, that doesn't mean condone, it means understand the issues before we wade in and guage everything with our own civilian moral compass.

Being in the military during wartime doesn't mean this guy is any less of a monster than he's demonstrated he can be.  That doesn't make this dude any less harmless, or comprehensible.  Just puts a label on him as "fucked up vet who needs attention pronto before he kills someONE instead of someTHING."

And attention, in this case, is pointing the finger from the comfortable moral highground ?

Yeah, I hold a lot of therapists in various stances and pov's to blame too.  As long as you hold that line of "oh I don't tell you what to do, I just try to understand why you do it" you don't change much, do ya?

But that's a whole other bullshit thread.

Again, you insist on twisting this around to suit yourself.  I'm actually a hynotherapist, I deal with the thoughts and feelings and I help get peoples feet back on the ground on this stuff.  I also deal with families of those with problems too... although not as much as my wife.

You may think I'm contributing to this whole mess but I really (and I mean REALLY) don't see how.  And if you think, as a hypnotherapist, I should be pointing out how evil he obviously is then obviously you don't know the first thing about my line of work.  You should perhaps talk to my wife whos a clinical psychologist going for her psychiatric training.

My main point atm is that if you are going to argue the morality of this thing, you probably shouldn't do it from the standpoint of their therapist, because you've already stated you can't judge.  And you are talking to people without the so-called kneejerk reactions you are placing on us here.  I'd say the majority of people responding itt have some sort of education, experience and back up.

What I said was, this was wrong... but you need to understand the nature of it before you can slap the 'evil' badge on this guy.  You really SHOULD understand this...

... because the reason your soldier comes back so screwed up may well be because of very similar feelings.  Indeed, he may well have pinned the 'evil' badge on himself.  And if it all starts to go wrong (And I hope to god it doesn't) you're going to be relying on EXACTLY the kind of non-judgemental professionals who will be helping him drop the guilt and get a handle on it all.

Not to absolve him of any moral crime, but just to bring him BACK HOME

Your attack is unwarranted.

You are taking the non-blame stance and telling others they can't do so either.  That's fucked up.

No, I understand why people blame this man.  I'm not saying they can't... I'm just saying that there may be a lot more going on.  So kill me.

Everyone has "deep, complicated" experiences.  This is one further category of them.  And one that needs addressing, by the public, in just this manner, or guess what?  It'll never get resolved and go away.

Okay, and when the public gets mad at the guilt-ridden vets it goes away ?  Oh, yeah, just like it did for the returning vietnam vets.  All they need is some good ol' fashioned blamefest to bring them round.  Yep?  Well... I'm sorry but the public treatment of those vets made NOTHING better and made NOTHING 'go away'

It just made things far worse.  They came back to a whole shitload of blame... The ones that didn't kill themselves STILL havent integrated.  Success for the straight social finger of morality ?  I guess not.

There is NOTHING to support your contention that what returning vets need is fingerpointing and blame.  What they need is for someone to take their damned psychological webbing off.


Now, remember earlier you said "I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong" ...

I get off where you get on in apologetics.  They're bullshit.  This isn't a "black and white" or even "right or wrong" issue--it's a fucked up problem society needs to pay attention to and do something about, really.  To me, this incident is a no-brainer.  The dude did a bad thing and should be punished and then seek mental help asap.

If it isn't 'black and white'... and it isn't 'right or wrong'... and it is 'just a fucked up mess that society needs to pay attention to'... then isn't that EXACTLY what I've been saying (and you've been denying) ?

Your problem is that you DO seem to think it is 'black and white'... you DO seem to think it is a matter of 'right and wrong'... and as a result you are rushing to condemn.  Paradox ?

You're confusing the crap out of me.  Are you high right now ?

As you go on to say...

But I wouldn't also "kneejerk" your own reaction against those who DO judge, blame and condemn.

Did you just say it wasn't a B&W / R&W issue ?  I never said that you couldn't call it evil... just urged against simple 'OMG - A PUPPY' responses without at least considering that the issue may have more depth.

You are such an argumentative lil' bunny ain't you

And I daresay few aren't AWARE of what goes on in war--they just don't think that it excuses people from criminal acts against others.

And again with your straw man arguments... I never excused anyone.


This is getting tiring.  Yet I really am inexorably attracted to your line of reasoning... I'm actually becoming genuinely interested what you're going to attack me with next.


~Fing Feng III

I'm not saying that they choose to off themselves, or that they need to be mentally strong enough to exercise moral judgement.... I'm saying that this jerk volunteered take employment with a group that is in the business of mass murder. Everything that happens afterward is directly related to that decision. His PTSD, his puppy throwing, any bloodguilt from dead arabs... all of it is HIS FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY.

Then, what you're saying is that anyone that signs up is guilty of putting themselves in danger of commiting an attrocity regardless of whether, in fact, they do.  Since you admit that it is highly unlikely a squadie signs up 'wanting' to lose it... but in the act of signing up accepts responsibility if they do.

This one might lose it.  That one might lose it... we know for a fact that a large percentage of them WILL lose it so statistically the individual cases are not really relevant.  We already expect it.

I agree with you to an extent, but I still stand by my statements

If we pack them off expecting this then we should also be prepared to accept it when it happens and not just indulge moral kneejerks against particular individuals without the benefit of a Psych-Eval.  We knew this type of thing would happen.  War ain't clean or pretty and it certainly isn't noble and honourable...

Shit happens and all the anger in the world won't change a damned thing.


I just don't see, after admitting recognition of the psychiatric danges of war on the individual, that it makes sense to just come out and say 'This man is obviously wrong and deserves punishment'.  You really need to know his state of mind before you can start making moral judgements.

And on this score I just get the feeling that many people can't see past the 'OMG - A PUPPY' thing.

If you know a certain act will send 20% of the people involved OTT then either :

a) Accept that by comissioning you're responsible for both act and any associated cleanup
-or-
b) You don't commission the act

If you go into war (or stand by whilst your government goes to war) with the knowledge that many of those involved are going to come back dangerously unhinged or suicidal... then you cannot blame each individual unless you can demonstrate that they commissioned an imoral act with full mental faculty.


Like RP pointed towards, this stuff is pretty much expected by the Army who really do understand the psychology of war and those individuals involved in it.  It is a sad reality of war that things get a little sick at times... black humour abounds because it MUST.  If it didn't they'd be out their topping themselves... many will still top themselves when they get back.  Seriously, the black humour is part and parcel of staying alive... it just happens to cause a lot of outrage from those at home who can afford such a nice neat moral view.

It makes sense to me,

But anyway, I said I'd vacate this thread so thats what I'll do ; )  I just kinda caught your post on the way out.


~Fing Feng III

@Random_Probability - I get you 100% on the black humour thing, sometimes you really have to laugh or you'd break down.  Thats one of the coping mechanisms we use when everything goes to shit.  Ditto 'hurting too damned much' ... I think we pretty much see eye to eye on most of this... I just tend to wave the 'anti-US foreign Policy' flag a little too much at times and it sometimes gets in the way of the issue at hand.

*takes a deep breath*

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


~Fing Feng III

Tell you what--you go spend some time with those self-same people those soldiers are out killing, k?  *married to an Aghan*

Everytime they hear a car backfiring, they hit the floor.  My mother in law cries out in her sleep NIGHTLY because of nightmares, sleeps with her back to the motherfucking wall.  Don't go there, don't play that, "I'm the only one who knows what PTSD is like"...

I didn't... I said that unless you've dealt with it in one form or another you can't say shit.

You (unlike most) have, so I expect we can recognise where each other is coming from.

ASSumations are nice, ain't they?

So, you'd rather I just jumped on the 'OMG THEY KILLED THE PUPPY - BASTARDS' bandwagon ?  You really think that would help anything ?

My point was that theres a bigger issue here than an isolated act of violence against a puppy.  Since you've made clear where you're comming from I'd expect at least a LITTLE nod of recognition before you lay into the subject.

Yet you just jump in with the 'you're talking shit' vibe and then imply I'm being an ass about this even tough you appear to agree with 90% of my argument.  Ummm... yeah... cool.

I live in motherfucking San Diego, my kids have to console their mates on 1) the fact their dad or mom is gone 8 to 10 months out of 12 and 2) didn't come home period and 3) came home headless and heartless.

The exact point I'm making... this marine may come home and blow his brains all over a wall... yet people who DONT know WTF we're talking about here see only the puppy and want to immediately assume the guy did so cus he thought it was fun... not perhaps because he may be pretty damned fucked up by it all.

Again, I'm not telling HIM he's right... I'm telling OTHERS it may be more complicated than they suspect.  So chill.

Thing is, you start holding those guys to a different standard, and that won't bring their humanity BACK.  It's on society to hold them to that line and get them back into the fold, with therapy and apologies, sure.

But you don't cure the sickness by introducing more disease--by telling the soldiers "it's ok you kill puppies, no biggie, you've seen combat!" you've essentially reaffirmed to him that it's ok to stray over that line, time and again, because he's got pain in his head where his conscience and dignity should be.

Ummm... I didn't.  I was making the point that it isn't quite so simple to see into this guys head or to expect that his value system is perfectly fine.  I'm not telling soldiers anything... I'm telling civilian kneejerkers that theres a whole deal more to this than some cunt throwing puppies for fun.  This rings heavily of early PTS.

Do you disagree, because you seem to.

You are excusing a bunch of people from ever returning to their families and friends and colleagues.  You are in effect separating them out from the fold rather then expecting them to rejoin--that seems like part of the problem to me, not part of the solution.

Now, that is bullshit.  How is seeking to understand rather than either condone or condemn going to be of any practical value to a therapist.  And I did say that I was speaking as a professional therapist.

You're telling me I should judge these people ?  Fuck off,  Most of them that come in for therapy are already judging themselves and are way full of self hate.  Yeah, I should judge them... Get real, the only way they get through is by realising that what they did is not who they are... they have to let go and they cannot, because everytime they look at their children they see burnt corpses and feel fucking responsible.

Telling them to accept responsibility is precisely what makes them want put a gun to their mouths.  I LISTEN to them, I TALK to them, I do HYPNOTHERAPY, I teach COPING techniques...

But I DO NOT ABSOLVE... if they want absolution they can go to a priest

And I DO NOT BLAME... they can find that inside of themselves, or they can go face their neatly moral compartmentalised judgemental members of the general public.

So, if that's your beef I suggest you sit down, take a deep breath, and then STFU telling me I'm enabling such attrocities because you really don't have a clue about the work I do.  And it isn't just me, my wife is a clinical psychologist with a specialisation in stress related disorders.

If these people are ever to get over what they've seen and done, they will need re-entry, they will need to feel a part of who they were supposedly fighting for and waiting to come back home to.

Well thanks for that enlightening view.

It's on the military fucks and society to help fix the disconnect they feel when they return.  That won't fucking happen by saying to them it's ok if they implode in the meantime.

See, now I started out by criticising the 'military fucks' as you put it.  I just can't help feeling that we share so much common ground here yet you just want to fight me out of anger.  You appear to know first hand the problems yet you seem to be completely polarised against me.

Where did I say it was 'okay' if some guy 'implodes' ... I didn't.  I said it is understandable that this shit happens and that he needs help and not some kneejerk reaction from the puppylover brigade (of which I am one BTW).  I really don't see how I'm advocating marines going jerko.

I really don't see where you get off...

... but I get off here.

Please feel free to continue this attack in my absence.


~Fing Feng III

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


@ratatosk:

I see exactly where you're coming from, but I don't think things are so simple.  People don't CHOOSE to lose it, people don't CHOOSE to come home and kill themselves ... people just cope the best way they can and sometimes they go over the edge.

All warefare is peppered with incidents where people have gone 'over the edge' in the moment.  And returning home many carry all the crap with them.  Like I said, it is a tough job... but not many can achieve a balance between the brutal nature of the job and staying in touch with their humane side.  Way too many need long term counselling and even psychiatric treatment.

Look at tours in Vietnam and Northern Ireland where trust was a major issue and the enemy was often invisible.  The psychological effects of those environments in particular sent even the toughest of men right over the edge... no man has an iron will.

It is therefore perhaps a little too simple to say that they should all remain mentally strong enough to excercise moral judgement...   But I agree with you that in other circumstances it is what we expect generally of people.  The problem is when they come back many have stopped seeing themselves AS people and thats where problems start.


~Fing Feng III

And that somehow magically changes the fact that this guy volunteered to join a organization that is trained, designed and used for mass murder? I do not accept the "Dur, those poor boys got tricked into joining" bullshit. Maybe we could make that argument in the 50's, when WWII was still fresh in the minds of individuals. Now though, after Korea, after Vietnam, after a generation of wars for corporate interests... naivety seems like a silly excuse to me.

I think you're forgetting that the UN changed the face of the US Army role until just recently.

Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.

I gotta disagree Fing Fing... We are, all of us, responsible for our actions. Sure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it. It's not like PTSD is some brand new thing, or psychological damage to soldiers is an unknown, that he can't be blamed for.

Every soldier must take personal responsibility for every death they cause, just like any other human. Having the blessing of some social/tribal system and wearing a fancy jacket doesn't change that.

I see where you're coming from but I'm not entirely sure that most marines DID sign up for this.  The US army has, since vietnam, tried to be seen as a policing force... For a long time there was the feeling that the UN meant that most of their work would be blue-capped... peace keeping and the like.  I'm sure a lot of people signed up thinking they were making a difference for good in the world.

And, as Roo points out, the recruiters advertise it very well as a chance to make the most of yourself, to become self reliant, educated, assertive and to see the world... they are quick to tell you that the modern army is all about education, skills and self-betterment.

They tend not to mention the rampant PTSD problems, the suicides and the familial breakdowns which DO occur.


I do understand what you're saying, that this doesn't absolve him of a personal moral responsibility... I'm just saying that I can see clearly how such concepts can disintegrate.  More people commited suicide after the Falklands than were killed on active duty... this shows the extreme mental states that exist at a time of war and that such extreme states can persist far into peacetime.

Yes, it was horrible, it was senseless, it was cold and callous... Yet I find it difficult to blame the man on a whim, based on some standard of morality we civilians can afford.  You've got to be pretty cold to get the job done and he's in a very different place to you and I.

Even when he comes home, he will likely carry all of this with him... just like countless others he may experience guilt, self-loathing, anger and a difficulty relating to society or even his own family.  I hardly see those effects of war as voluntary.

But thats just my take.  Perhaps it is just my duty as a healthcare professional to neither blame nor absolve but just try to understand.  If I was anyone else I'd probably just kneejerk about the fate of the puppy.


~Fing Feng III

I remember Nova did a feature after Gulf War I where they talked about the environmental havoc Saddam's army wreaked on Kuwait.  One thing they showed was how a bunch of the Iraqi soldiers had set up shop in a Kuwait zoo.  They showed some Camel carcasses that had obviously been used for target practice.  (that is the Camels were alive when they were used as targets).  Anyway, this thread reminded me of that. 

That's what war does, on both sides of the fence.

You're right, I'm not making a point, and I should be.  We have a saying "What happens in the field, stays in the field".

why?

Was the guy out of line?  Yeah, a little bit.

just a tiiiiiiny littlebit

WTF MAN, HE THREW A PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

Yeah, but what happens in the field... blah 

Basically, these guys have gone through hell and back and they are pretty fucked up.  Anyone who thinks not should consider that the Falklands Conflict (which was a really minor scuffle in the scheme of things) ... resulted in around 250 british deaths in the zone and around 300 suicides after returning home.  Despite being NOTHING LIKE what these guys have been going through in shitholes like Afghanistan.

And when I say suicides we're not talking freshfaced impressionable kids here, we're talking about 2-Para and 42-Commando squadron.  what they went through was nothing like the hellholes of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.  So honestly, expect that puppies WILL get thrown... both literally and figuratively.

War makes people do things like this.  It makes them come back and beat on their kids and wives.  It makes hard Paratroop Reg't and Commando Reg't commit suicide in peace time because they just can't connect with society anymore... it makes people hate anything that reminds them of the part of themselves they lost.

You'd think after Vietnam most Americans would realise the true cost of war.


So, the guy threw a puppy off a cliff... big deal.  There's a well understood mechanism at play here and it is one the army always downplays.  They HAVE to cus can't have a well adjusted killing machine with a social conscience.

The rational reaction would be to comfort it then break its neck in a single move (Marines certainly shouldn't have a problem with this) or to expend two rounds into its skull... hurling it off a cliff is an example of how PTSD manifests itself as the inability to connect, empathise and care.

It isn't realy surprising though since empathy, social conscience and humane standards of decency and care can quickly kill a man on the front line.

The problem is that we place these men and women in such shitty situations and then demand that they show some humanity.  Trust me, you can have one or the other but not both... either an ape with an assault rifle and no emotion... or a man who sheds a respectful tear over a wounded puppy.

Hence my comments which Random appears to have taken to heart.


Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.



~Fing Feng III
'red for blood , white for glory , and blue... for a boy' - R McGough (from Why patriots are a bit nuts in the head)

[The US is on a merry rampage and the guys paying for it are the ones on the front lines... when they come home, expect many more puppies thrown.]

We're fighting the stray dogs abroad so we dont have to fight them here!

I note that Randoms comments were mainly aimed at me, so let me try to place my comments in context

By your comments I can only conclude that none of you have been in the military, nor do you really know anybody who is or was in the military at some point in their life.  It is equally obvious that somewhere along the line a few of you became firmly entrenched with the meme "all military personal are brainwashed into being mindless killing machines".

I didn't say all, but war does tend to harden people and violence towards children, pets and loved ones is a sign of a growing inability to relate.  Military cousellors have to deal with this quite a lot as do civilian therapists at a time of conflict.

To answer the question I don't have any friends or relatives that have been in the military (unless you count my grandfather who was stationed in Burma during the big one).  I have however had to deal with people who have suffered from the effects of PTSD and I'm familiar with a lot of case studies on military emotional burnouts.

My comments regarding an inability to relate stand as a professional opinion.  They are also the opinion of many army doctors working in the british army so I feel the comments where pretty much justified.  The fact that you have relatives who do not (one assumes) have problems relating is hardly the issue.

It is a medical fact that many others do.

My point was that for them a 'fluffy pink bunny' would be despised because it represents a banality and is representative of the part of them that was taken away.  They've been 'somewhere else' and it is somewhere VERY difficult to come back from.  Again, not all... but it is certainly a very real symptom of such cases.

Of course, I guess there are some things you just don't talk about in the corps.

All of you are intelligent enough to realize that such a belief is every bit as ignorant as the meme "all niggers are thieving motherfuckers" or "all women are whores".  Be that as it may, these are your beliefs so I suppose I should "respect" your beliefs, such as they are.

My belief is that it is all too easy to go gooey eyed over a puppy but considerably more difficult to understand the stresses and frustrations of the man who threw it.  The typical reaction ?  Lynch him.

I still say the puppy isn't the issue.  The US is on a merry rampage and the guys paying for it are the ones on the front lines... when they come home, expect many more puppies thrown.

I had to deal with a lot of people (even after the Falklands for example) a few familes, relatives and the men and women themselves.  A lot of figurative puppies got thrown and a lot of families broke up as a result.

Whilst I may not have your view, the view I have is certainly a considered one.

That said, I may not have aired it in the best way and for that I apologise.


~Fing Feng III

You know an argument I think is totally shrill, whiny, and retarded? The "It's lame to care about this issue because worse things happen" argument. Basically, it's the "EVERYONE IN THE WORLD SHOULD CARE ABOUT WHAT I CARE ABOUT OR THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE" argument in a new, stupider package.

I disagree.  It just highlights a much bigger issue.  That we have governments that dehumanise people in the first place... we create an army of desensitised killers and set them loose on others.

Then we bring them home in such a state that they cannot relate to anything or anyone...

... what do you expect happens next.

A single puppy is pretty much irrelevant when you have a planet full of angry primates caving each others skulls with rocks.  Sure, we can relate to the puppy so thats what we choose to focus on... unfortunately, there are monstrous folk around who would quite cheerfully throw our puppy loving asses after it.

THE PUPPY AINT THE ISSUE


~Fing Fing III

I guess some people just don't get it.

Marines don't just put on the uniform and go out to shoot and get shot at.  Theres a lot of training and desensitisation goes into churning out marines.

I suspect they did Kittens and Puppies as part of basic training.

Until you have hurled 100 puppies of a cliff without shedding a tear you really can't place yourselves in this brave mans steel toecapped boots.

Support our brave puppy throwers!  It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.


~Fing Feng III

LOL

Back to the original premise though.  Personally, I don't feel that the absense of a 'God' means that we as humans would feel the need to invent one.  I'd take a similar position though... I'd say that failure to accept ones own mortality is the major force behind the need to fashion Gods.

To take that further, it is the belief that we're somehow too special to waste.  That we mean something far greater than we actually do... I think if we could get our heads around the 'fertiliser' concept and simply accept it, we'd be much happier in the long term.

The fertiliser concept is a simple life affirming concept and runs like this:  I understand that the greatest likelihood is that I ultimately amount to little more than fertiliser for whatever follows.  In this I shall find peace and understanding... Every day I have is important.  Every second of every day is important.  I shall not waste a single moment or breath but shall live, and live with every fibre of my being.

Having said that... Attempts to found the first church of fertiliser didn't draw as much interest as I had hoped.

Turtle joke ?


~Pope Fing Feng III

triggerhappy fellow, are you? kill this, shoot that, first against the wall then ...

I'm actually quite peacable...

But seriously, democracy and patents both fellate monkeys.


~ Pope Fing Feng II

Anyone with their name on a patent will be among the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Earlier in the thread someone commented that Feudalism was no better.  I disagree... The technology was poor, education was dire, medicine was as likely to kill as to cure you... But feudalism itself?  Is it so bad?  It was just another form of 'rich mans socialism'

See, under feudalism the ruling classes knew that if they pissed off the populace sufficiently then heads would roll... and heads did roll, regularly.  Now, I know that isn't an ideal situation but what it DID do is keep the nobility on their toes much of their time.

One day, following an unusually large cluster of noble beheadings the heads of europe decided that all this power simply wasn't worth having ones head cut off over... and democracy was born.  Democracy has always been simply a way of retaining power whilst never finding your head on the block.  It was beautiful, it was simple, it worked.  It threw a giant rubber pacifier in the mouth of the discontent masses.

Democracy thus requires two parties (minimum) who oppose each other over EVERYTHING (even common sense things) whilst protecting the interests of themselves and the landowners using superficially competing paradigms.  Seriously, democracy as it stands was the death knell for what remained of the public power.


But hey, if you think they're letting you down, go vote for the guys echoing your sentiments.  It wont achieve anything.  Your life will still suck, Your leader will still lie, your people will still be slaves.  But, at least you get to choose the colour scheme for your cell... which HAS to be a good thing, no ?

I say nothing will improve unless we go back to cutting off heads... and KEEP cutting them off until the position no longer appeals to the greedy and self-interested.


Don't get me wrong though.  Democracy, as an ideal, is not in itself a 'bad thing'.  Unfortunately, democracy is just a word... modern applications of it have little to do with the dictionary definition and instead represent just another recloaking of 'socialism for the rich'... a meme.

Don't like the way democracy is working out for you?  Hmm?  Then quite clearly you're a dirty stinkin' communist and representative of all thats wrong with your country.  you oughta be ashamed ; )


~ Pope Fing Feng III

In a more philosophical sense one could envisage memes as being a new evolutionary sphere.  It works something like this...

- First you have the sphere of primitive materiality... and elemental evolution in the fires of suns

- Elemental evolution finds itself supporting primordial substance... and thus primordial evolution begins

- Primordial evolution supports specie... and thus comes the bloody evolution of natural selection

- Dominant specie support sociality... and thus comes frenetic social selection

- And now, society supports concept... and thus, memetic evolution begins


It isn't so difficult to posit the likelihood that ultradominant memes will evolve.  Just as it makes no sense for elements to be aware of our social sphere it does not automatically follow that we will be fully aware of the relevance of memetic evolution...

If one wanted to promote this to a modern memetic theology... memes are competing to become what? ultimate truth?... The universe is attempting to label itself and, in doing so, become.  Perhaps the ultimate pinnacle of memetic evolution fulfills a cyclic role very much akin to christian creationism...

... and, the MEME moved in the void.

Or, perhaps, self aware creatures are the primitive synapses of the great machine.  Memes are the first throughts flickering over those synapses, dancing their patterns... creating new and ever more brilliant displays and ever more dominant memes until at some point... Gods are born of the memetic hive consciousness.

Oh Jeeesus... Coca Cola!


MAN, I MUST GET MORE OF THESE MUSHROOMS.  I'm making absolutely fuck all sense and I love it.


~ Pope Fing Feng III