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That line from the father's song in Mary Poppins, where he's going on about how nothing can go wrong, in Britain in 1910.  That's about the point I realized the boy was gonna die in a trench.

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Unlimited Ferguson Thread of police state nightmare fuel.

Started by Da6s, August 14, 2014, 07:09:14 AM

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Bruno

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 21, 2014, 07:26:59 PM
Oh, dear.  I hope none of you have pleasant memories of the 90's TV show HerculesQuote from the actor's FB page:

QuoteFerguson riots have very little to do with the shooting of the young man. It is an excuse to be the losers these animals truly are. It is a tipping point to frustration built up over years of not trying, but blaming everyone else, The Man, for their failures. It's always someone else's fault when you give up. Hopefully this is a reminder to the African Americans ( I always thought we just Americans. Oh, well.) that their President the voted in has only made things worse for them, not better.


Awww, He's sowwy, kinda.

https://www.facebook.com/KevinSorbo
Formerly something else...

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Emo Howard on August 21, 2014, 07:38:47 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 21, 2014, 07:26:59 PM
Oh, dear.  I hope none of you have pleasant memories of the 90's TV show HerculesQuote from the actor's FB page:

QuoteFerguson riots have very little to do with the shooting of the young man. It is an excuse to be the losers these animals truly are. It is a tipping point to frustration built up over years of not trying, but blaming everyone else, The Man, for their failures. It's always someone else's fault when you give up. Hopefully this is a reminder to the African Americans ( I always thought we just Americans. Oh, well.) that their President the voted in has only made things worse for them, not better.


Awww, He's sowwy, kinda.

https://www.facebook.com/KevinSorbo

Thing about situations like this, they are excellent filters for weeding out the arse biscuits.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Faust

Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 21, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
And then THIS fucking thing:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/

Not exactly work safe. The full video of the other guy shot in St. Louis.
He was clearly pissed off about something before they even came along. Shouting shoot me now while running in a circle implies he wanted death by cop And I understand that they got scared, I would too if someone was waving their arms aggressively while approaching me but was using a gun really the only option?
Sleepless nights at the chateau

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 21, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
And then THIS fucking thing:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/

Not exactly work safe. The full video of the other guy shot in St. Louis.


That was horrible. But it still looks like suicide by cop to me.

The cops account of the situation was exaggerated, but what would you do if someone walks toward you with a knife after saying "Shoot me, shoot me now"?
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

MMIX

Quote from: N E T on August 21, 2014, 08:37:30 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 21, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
And then THIS fucking thing:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/

Not exactly work safe. The full video of the other guy shot in St. Louis.


That was horrible. But it still looks like suicide by cop to me.

The cops account of the situation was exaggerated, but what would you do if someone walks toward you with a knife after saying "Shoot me, shoot me now"?

I would say in a clear loud voice "NO". Ok maybe that's because I am a sadist, but more likely its because I am a damned pinko liberal european who finds your murrican gun culture repugnant. I am shocked, the fact that a guy like you N E T, whose opinion I have always respected even if I didn't agree can so blithely write it off as suicide by cop. WTF does that even mean in a country where being black seems to carry a suspended death sentence. Jesus Fuck America, you have hardly moved on race matters since, well EVAR.
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: MMIX on August 21, 2014, 09:02:51 PM
Quote from: N E T on August 21, 2014, 08:37:30 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 21, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
And then THIS fucking thing:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/

Not exactly work safe. The full video of the other guy shot in St. Louis.


That was horrible. But it still looks like suicide by cop to me.

The cops account of the situation was exaggerated, but what would you do if someone walks toward you with a knife after saying "Shoot me, shoot me now"?

I would say in a clear loud voice "NO". Ok maybe that's because I am a sadist, but more likely its because I am a damned pinko liberal european who finds your murrican gun culture repugnant. I am shocked, the fact that a guy like you N E T, whose opinion I have always respected even if I didn't agree can so blithely write it off as suicide by cop. WTF does that even mean in a country where being black seems to carry a suspended death sentence. Jesus Fuck America, you have hardly moved on race matters since, well EVAR.

Oh, but we have.

It's just that we had so far to climb, you see.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: MMIX on August 21, 2014, 09:02:51 PM
Quote from: N E T on August 21, 2014, 08:37:30 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 21, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
And then THIS fucking thing:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/

Not exactly work safe. The full video of the other guy shot in St. Louis.


That was horrible. But it still looks like suicide by cop to me.

The cops account of the situation was exaggerated, but what would you do if someone walks toward you with a knife after saying "Shoot me, shoot me now"?

I would say in a clear loud voice "NO". Ok maybe that's because I am a sadist, but more likely its because I am a damned pinko liberal european who finds your murrican gun culture repugnant. I am shocked, the fact that a guy like you N E T, whose opinion I have always respected even if I didn't agree can so blithely write it off as suicide by cop. WTF does that even mean in a country where being black seems to carry a suspended death sentence. Jesus Fuck America, you have hardly moved on race matters since, well EVAR.

You can make me out to be some kind of callous monster if you'd like. But suicide by cop is a thing in the US, and it's perhaps the most fucked up way to kill oneself.

And the United States gun-cat is out of the bag. It's not going back in the bag. What do you think would happen if we tried to ban guns at this point?
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

The Johnny

11 gunshots just to incapacitate someone? Did he even have a knife?
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: The Johnny on August 21, 2014, 09:31:09 PM
11 gunshots just to incapacitate someone? Did he even have a knife?

Yes, he did have a knife.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 21, 2014, 09:28:27 PM
Quote from: MMIX on August 21, 2014, 09:02:51 PM
Quote from: N E T on August 21, 2014, 08:37:30 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 21, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
And then THIS fucking thing:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/

Not exactly work safe. The full video of the other guy shot in St. Louis.


That was horrible. But it still looks like suicide by cop to me.

The cops account of the situation was exaggerated, but what would you do if someone walks toward you with a knife after saying "Shoot me, shoot me now"?

I would say in a clear loud voice "NO". Ok maybe that's because I am a sadist, but more likely its because I am a damned pinko liberal european who finds your murrican gun culture repugnant. I am shocked, the fact that a guy like you N E T, whose opinion I have always respected even if I didn't agree can so blithely write it off as suicide by cop. WTF does that even mean in a country where being black seems to carry a suspended death sentence. Jesus Fuck America, you have hardly moved on race matters since, well EVAR.

Oh, but we have.

It's just that we had so far to climb, you see.

Well said.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Raz Tech

So I'll probably get flamed for this, but whatevs, just gonna throw it out there anyways.

I don't know what they teach cops, but back when I stood watches with a gun and they had to teach me how and when to use it, we were taught about the "deadly force triangle".  I'm assuming cops have something similar.  Basically, for you to use deadly force, three conditions must be met; capability, opportunity, and intent. 
Capability is essentially just did the assailant have a weapon.  In this case, yes, he had a knife. 

Opportunity and intent are where it gets a little bit hazy. 

Opportunity means that the assailant was within range of his weapon.  This becomes difficult because there are a multitude of "what if" scenarios that could play out.  What if assailant decides to make a mad dash towards you?  What if assailant happens to be a knife-throwing champion and could easily take you out from 30 feet away?  All of these things are supposed to be considered.  I wouldn't say that the guy in the video was quite within range of a knife attack, but he was rapidly approaching that point. 

Intent means that the person intends to use the weapon.  This is another grey area because there isn't always a way to tell.  Are they brandishing the knife threateningly?  Are they verbally threatening? It's almost impossible to say.  You can't tell from a cellphone video whether or not someone is intending to use a knife on someone, and nobody is a mind reader.

Then there's the whole thing about using another method to take down an assailant.  This argument, I believe, has more credence than most other ones, but it's still hazy.  Could they have stopped him with some other, more intermediate weapon?  Perhaps.  But also perhaps not, and here's why I think that is.  Perhaps a taser would have been very effective.  Problem is, not all police officers carry tasers, and in some areas they straight-up aren't allowed to.  That being said, a taser probably would have been a much better approach, as the only problem you would usually run into with a taser is very large people sometimes aren't affected by them.  Still would have been a nice idea. 

Pepper spray could have been another option.  I would hardly say that this is effective though.  There is a small portion of the population that is immune to pepper spray all together.  Also pretty much any kind of stimulant drugs can diminish the effects of pepper spray.  On top of that, you can definitely fight through pepper spray if you are so inclined.  We had to get pepper sprayed and complete an obstacle course, and it sucks, but you can do it fairly easily.  It would probably be even easier to do if you were crazy hopped up on adrenaline.

Batons are pretty much no go in my opinion, as maybe you hit with a baton, maybe you don't and the assailant stabs you.  It's not worth the risk.

The biggest problem I see with the way they handled the situation is getting out of the car with guns already drawn.  That kind of escalates things, so it might have been better to wait until they had a better idea of the situation.

Of course, I'm not a cop, I wasn't there, and this is all just conjecture that I'm typing out from the safety of my computer.

hooplala

Whatever happened to shooting to incapacitate?  Wouldn't a bullet in the lower leg down most people, without killing them?
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: The Johnny on August 21, 2014, 09:31:09 PM
11 gunshots just to incapacitate someone? Did he even have a knife?

The last 10 were just to be sure, you see.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Hoopla on August 21, 2014, 09:38:59 PM
Whatever happened to shooting to incapacitate?  Wouldn't a bullet in the lower leg down most people, without killing them?

Police are not trained to shoot to incapacitate.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Da6s

Just like the zimmerman idiots, there's backers supporting the murdering cop. And they've already raised 127k+ for his defense.

http://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson

Disgusting.
We appear to be doomed by our DNA to repeat the same destructive behaviors our forebears have repeated for millenia. If anything our problem solving skills have actually diminished with the advent of technology & our ubiquitous modern conveniences. & yet despite our predisposition towards fear-driven hostility; towards what we anachronistically term primitive behavior another instinct is just as firmly encoded in our make-up. We are capable as our ancestors were of incredible breathtaking acts of kindness. Every hour of every day a man risks his life at a moments notice to save another. Forget for a moment the belligerent benevolent billionaires who grant the unfortunate a crumb of costfree cake. I speak of pure acts of selflessness. A Mother who rushes into the street to save a child from a speeding vehicle. A person who runs into a burning building to reach a family trapped on the upper story. Such actions,such moments,such unconscious selfless decisions,define what it is to be human