Messages

You're right.  It was a whim, and had I stopped to consider, I probably wouldn't have bumped it, but I was drunk, and the subject of thread-jacking had come up early on, so it was a chancy thing.

Is tubgirl going to fight baby Jesus?

I'm still toying with ideas for the prophet mohammed. Tubgirl might just work.

Baby Mohamed, same face, just darken it, and in place of the crown of thorns, a turban.  Just for continuity, a baby abraham, with a beard.  Three floating baby heads in a bar laughing at the schmucks who take them too seriously.  Then they get to arguing about who gets Tubgirl's soul, cause they're sick... oh so sick.

I'm sure that whatever you come up with will be better, but I had to share my mental picture.

A funny thing happened when I contemplated the forum.

The PD is a text that, above all, prompts thinking for one's self.  And what is a thought, but an action, waiting for a green light?  Thinking for one's self, and doing for one's self, and forging the reality that makes one happy, is the overarching theme/purpose of what made itself manifest to the persons of Mal² and OKR on that fateful day at the lanes.  "Throw off the shackles of what went before, because with every sunrise, there is new opportunity.  Escape from the "now" is fruitless, and we're all sacks of rotting meat at the end, so be, live, think as you wish, because no-one need give you permission; you hold all in the palm of your hand." 

Dogma, and external standards, can carry you only so far.  The foundation can be laid in mud and straw, but bricks can only be forged in the heat of LIFE, the kiln of experience.  To forge a basis of KNOWING there must be a trial for true; else the first wind that blows, the first rumble of earth, the first wave from far out to sea, will trip up your fleeing feet, will foul your erstwhile escape, will preclude your precious self-preservation, and doom your dumbass to defeat.

The ones that stand guard, the Gargantuan Gargoyles who watch over the gates to enlightenment, are possessed of a responsibility that goes with such lofty pretensions.  They are the ones on whom it falls to provide the next layer of Truth.  When emotions run high, and enthusiasm is everywhere evident, They are the ones to drive the horrible truths home, to push and pull the Proto-Enlightened to rise above their constraints.  If mere words become standards, then Rules become Law, and Someone will get too Serious, and the self-appointed Cerberus must fulfill its role to crack the Lails and salt the snails and rave and rant and wear no pants to allow a draft to alter the attitude to a point of proper irreverence. 

Discord, who struck a chord in me, is an interesting note (or measure, or maybe an entire phrase), but the symphony of LIFE awaits, each unto his own, until, in the din of existence, there is a completeness achieved (yet never ending, until the last note fades away). 

In plain terms, I view the forums here at PD.com as an example of what might be achieved in a group of individuals ... one model amongst many others that should serve to encourage the dreams of those that wish to be themselves, and who realize, quite possibly for the first time, that the only thing that's stopping them is a papier-mache wall.  By virtue of its location, at TheHolyBook.com, this forum is the likeliest place to attract the Noobs (who admittedly may not be as bored with the Original as the rest).  Yet as long as there is a sense of wonder, as long as a desire is evident for a broadening of perspective, then they should be helped, and guided, and given a measure of understanding, else they recoil as much from freedom as one of us would a southern baptist furry convention with Hitler as the main speaker and the world's fugliest woman passing out herpes by the cunt-full in the lobby.

Who among us has never had a dream?  Who among us has never felt the thrill of a new and different perspective?  Can you not recall a moment where your world turned on end?  And did you not avoid the clock, recalling Schrodinger's Cat?  If you close your eyes, and do not acknowledge time, this NEW can last forever! 

Then...


Inevitably...


The question presents itself...


Now what?


All I know is that I don't know.  The answers you seek lie on the path that you alone must walk.  I can share what I have learned from the places that I've been, but until you've done the things I have, it's nothing more than talk.  I can point in a direction, but the steps must be your own.

All I know is that I want to know what lies 'round every corner, I wish to understand myself, my area, my world and universe, and so I keep my eyes and ears open for whatever I can gather from whomever seems worthwhile, so share your thoughts, ideas, and dreams, and who knows where we might go!

Moar Reaction!   ~OP...

Discuss...

(P.S. I've already heard "That was, like, so 2005?!")

(Post- Post- Script: BS is drunk and vulnerable, don't give him a hard time)

(post, post, post script--- Not intended for public consumption--- unless you mean consumption in its "tuburcular" fashion, or maybe some subliminal H5N1 influence where the vast majority of people die...--- Never mind...)

Cain-- Thanks for the consideration, but what it comes down to with me, is that I write what makes sense to me, and it's up to anyone else to enjoy, rebut, ignore, or whatever.  Whatever goes along with the OP stays, as that is what happened, I'm not sweating it.  Also, your self-doubt seems entirely inappropriate because you're intelligent, articulate, and gosh darn it, people like you.  I also live with the dichotomy of knowing how awesome I am, yet ever lurking in the back of my mind is the idea that I may just be fooling myself.  It's rough, but for all the time spent at one extreme, hopefully you experience the other.

Hunter-- I'm not trying to ignore anybody, but I only comment when I have something productive to add.  Also, I'm not on here all the time, so I miss things sometimes.

Rodger-- While I'm impressed with much of your writings, and your sense of commitment to fucking with me seems solid, I can't help but wonder if there aren't more productive things you could be doing with your hate, like making children cry, or soccer moms clinically depressed, or even designing a miniature torture chamber out of legos to act out your desire for revenge.

RWHN-- The entirety of the OP following that statement was the funny thing that happened.  Well, it might not be that funny haha, but I was also making a reference to a movie title, to better grab people's interest.

Exactly.

[from the obvious and occluded lessons administered from day one by the people who are supposed to give a shit about our welfare]

It's as if, most of our lives, we've been given shitty software from the obvious and occluded lessons administered from day one by the people who are supposed to give a shit about our welfare with a limited amount of options, then we find (in things like discordia, meditation, psychology--some of it--, science, and whatever else trips our triggers) "programs" that help us be more of what we want, and do more of what makes us happy.  Then, when AOL, spyware, and spammers realize they're losing their hold, they fight back with deviousness and subtlety, alongside flashing lights and loud noises, the classic magician's trick of "Look over here while I do something else over here."

Clarified

The group thing kind of intrigues me, because if one were to spend their entire life isolated from others, the total amount of knowledge of the self and the world would be minuscule --> we need external input for internal growth,   

I'm starting to see a correlation between individual computers connecting to various servers, creating the totality of the internet, with individual lives behind the firewall of the physical interface, connecting with various groups who wish to influence knowledge/perception/actions of said individuals, encompassing the totality of the human race.

It's as if, most of our lives, we've been given shitty software with a limited amount of options, then we find (in things like discordia, meditation, psychology--some of it--, science, and whatever else trips our triggers) "programs" that help us be more of what we want, and do more of what makes us happy.  Then, when AOL, spyware, and spammers realize they're losing their hold, they fight back with deviousness and subtlety, alongside flashing lights and loud noises, the classic magician's trick of "Look over here while I do something else over here."

A funny thing happened when I contemplated the forum.

The PD is a text that, above all, prompts thinking for one's self.  And what is a thought, but an action, waiting for a green light?  Thinking for one's self, and doing for one's self, and forging the reality that makes one happy, is the overarching theme/purpose of what made itself manifest to the persons of Mal² and OKR on that fateful day at the lanes.  "Throw off the shackles of what went before, because with every sunrise, there is new opportunity.  Escape from the "now" is fruitless, and we're all sacks of rotting meat at the end, so be, live, think as you wish, because no-one need give you permission; you hold all in the palm of your hand." 

Dogma, and external standards, can carry you only so far.  The foundation can be laid in mud and straw, but bricks can only be forged in the heat of LIFE, the kiln of experience.  To forge a basis of KNOWING there must be a trial for true; else the first wind that blows, the first rumble of earth, the first wave from far out to sea, will trip up your fleeing feet, will foul your erstwhile escape, will preclude your precious self-preservation, and doom your dumbass to defeat.

The ones that stand guard, the Gargantuan Gargoyles who watch over the gates to enlightenment, are possessed of a responsibility that goes with such lofty pretensions.  They are the ones on whom it falls to provide the next layer of Truth.  When emotions run high, and enthusiasm is everywhere evident, They are the ones to drive the horrible truths home, to push and pull the Proto-Enlightened to rise above their constraints.  If mere words become standards, then Rules become Law, and Someone will get too Serious, and the self-appointed Cerberus must fulfill its role to crack the Lails and salt the snails and rave and rant and wear no pants to allow a draft to alter the attitude to a point of proper irreverence. 

Discord, who struck a chord in me, is an interesting note (or measure, or maybe an entire phrase), but the symphony of LIFE awaits, each unto his own, until, in the din of existence, there is a completeness achieved (yet never ending, until the last note fades away). 

In plain terms, I view the forums here at PD.com as an example of what might be achieved in a group of individuals ... one model amongst many others that should serve to encourage the dreams of those that wish to be themselves, and who realize, quite possibly for the first time, that the only thing that's stopping them is a papier-mache wall.  By virtue of its location, at TheHolyBook.com, this forum is the likeliest place to attract the Noobs (who admittedly may not be as bored with the Original as the rest).  Yet as long as there is a sense of wonder, as long as a desire is evident for a broadening of perspective, then they should be helped, and guided, and given a measure of understanding, else they recoil as much from freedom as one of us would a southern baptist furry convention with Hitler as the main speaker and the world's fugliest woman passing out herpes by the cunt-full in the lobby.

Who among us has never had a dream?  Who among us has never felt the thrill of a new and different perspective?  Can you not recall a moment where your world turned on end?  And did you not avoid the clock, recalling Schrodinger's Cat?  If you close your eyes, and do not acknowledge time, this NEW can last forever! 

Then...


Inevitably...


The question presents itself...


Now what?


All I know is that I don't know.  The answers you seek lie on the path that you alone must walk.  I can share what I have learned from the places that I've been, but until you've done the things I have, it's nothing more than talk.  I can point in a direction, but the steps must be your own.

All I know is that I want to know what lies 'round every corner, I wish to understand myself, my area, my world and universe, and so I keep my eyes and ears open for whatever I can gather from whomever seems worthwhile, so share your thoughts, ideas, and dreams, and who knows where we might go!

I like those points, and wish I had heard them sooner, but in response:

1.  Yes, generally we have, but there are groups of people the world over who do know how to survive off of what the local ecology can provide.  In fact, in the interest of broadening my education on tribalism, I've seen a few programs on the travel channel that had westerners living with and learning from a tribe in New Guinea, as well as shows on other tribe's survival practices from the Amazon.  There are also people who are nature survivalists who get dropped in the middle of no-where and travel to a pre-determined pickup location.  Survival in nature may be beyond the abilities of the vast majority of the population, but it's nowhere near impossible on an individual/familial basis.

Two points to this: 1) The groups you are speaking of (which I do know of) are located in remote locations far from where you are living, thus the methods, the knowlege on which they use to survive would be highly different than the methods that would need to be used where you live, and even that has been highly altered. 2) A family group (as I believe it has been said here before) is far too small a population to be sustainable over a long period of time. You need only look to the science of population ecology for that information.

Yup.  But, were some sort of cataclysm to happen, people would figure out a way to survive, or die, leaving only those people who already had some knowledge of plants/animals, those who could figure it out, and those that could establish dominance over other survivors with resources.  Pretty much "good luck" but if individuals pursue whatever wilderness lore is appropriate for their usual surroundings they could improve their chances.

2.  This one I agree with almost totally, and it goes along with number three to a certain extent as in the elimination of the herds of Buffalo, the destruction of vast swathes of forests to make room for the farms we have today.

And because of that altered ecology, the ability to sustain even an individual human in a primitivist manner is depressed.

Which is why we need to stop further predation upon natural resources.

3.  You're right, there is not enough huntable/gatherable foodstuffs to sustain our current population.  Technology has given us the ability to genetically alter crops, but time allowed the same thing as the domestication of certain plants followed a pattern of natural selection that reinforced traits useful to humans.  We just cut out the interim generational mutation necessary to get there.

Please explain further what you are saying here.

We've genetically engineered plants that produce larger yields, resistance to diseases and other things.  Given enough time, every sedentary group that developed any amount of agriculture would also have bred their crops for larger yields, and the ones more resistant to diseases would survive.  It may have taken a lot longer but differences in size of domesticated vs wild plants are well documented.  I'm just saying, genetic manipulation allows a quick path to more options, but over time, it would have happened anyway.

4.  Being more environmentally acceptable is the point.  I think the systems of raiding and raping eliminated the weak and propagated those genes better suited for survival, regardless of the emotional stigmas associated with those behaviors in "Modern" society.  I have no illusions about an "eden-like" existence, but I don't see tribal behaviors as any worse than what goes on in society today.

They are no worse, but they are also no better, and they are certainly not anarchic, which was my point. If you are trying to build an anarchic-primitivist "society", you can't use any tribal organisation as a model.

Okay, I get you.  I need to stop qualifying my position as Anarcho-Primitivist until I do more research than two books and some TV shows. 

Just for the record, reading Guns, Germs, and Steel has helped to show me reasons why certain societies have subjugated or eliminated others, and shown me the almost inevitability of a culture like ours coming to dominate a world landscape.  Even were I to wave a magic wand and return the world to groups of hunter/gatherers, eventually it would return to something resembling what we have now.

Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

ditto

I readily admit the impracticality of trying to establish a worldwide return to tribalism, but I think that embracing some of the good things about it (like reducing society's ecological impact and strengthening interpersonal relationships) can provide achievable goals to improve the quality of life most people experience.  It has become a part of my map, but by no means the totality of it.

What you are forwarding with Anarcho-primitivism is not a return to tribalism, which, as earlier stated, was highly organised, but a completly new system. And I agree, decreasing ecological impact and strenghthening interpersonal relationships are two very important things that people would do well to pay more attention to.

Currently I am intrigued by efforts to use technology to reduce the output of CO2 such as can be found here:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/

Hangero pointed out that currently the best thing to do is to pursue scientific answers to the problems we've created for ourselves, and that also made sense to me. 

I don't think I have all the answers, but I do think that more people should include Anarcho-Primitivism in their education, regardless of its problems, simply to expand their knowledge base and help eliminate some of the assumptions they take for granted without even knowing.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

No problem. You seem to be coming to a personal consensus on what you feel needs to be done, and I commend you for that. The reason that people reacted to you badly in the first place was your advocation for massive human death in responce to ecological crisis, a very (to say the least) controversial and (in my opinion) amoral approach to the problem.

That is all for now.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion. 

Sorry it took so long to reply, I'm playing poker at the same time, and formulating responses takes my attention away from the game, so it takes a while.

The greatest problems with anarcho-primitivism that I can be objective about are:

1) Lost knowlege: Humans, in general, have lost the cultural knowlege of living without modern technology, the uses of natural biological materials, hunting, gathering, farming (in a non-modern sense), tool making, shelter building, etc.

2) Changed environ: even if we somehow learn that information, we can't really apply it today because the modern human has so altered the landscape and the ecology as the diversity and abundance of ecological systems and biological species which this knowlege relied upon are greatly reduced.

3) Human Population: The human population is too large on this planet to sustain such an amount of people. One of the primary reasons that we can "sustain" (quotations because I personally do not believe that current population sizes and growth rates are sustainable over time) the populations of this planet are genetically engineered species of corn and wheat, technology which would not be available in an a primitivist society. And there is certainly not enough gatherable and huntable food available on this planet for 6 + billion people.

4) Primitive societies were HIGHLY structured, with family lineages and chieftomships and tribal feuds and war parties. They were humans, and just like any other humans they were not these "eden-like" peoples that so many seem to think. Yes, their relationship was closer to ecology than the rest of us, but they still fucked things up, had wars, raped, pillaged, plundered, and lived like humans, generally.

So, there are some points. Feel free to argue them if you wish, but this is why I believe that anarcho-primitivism is a impossibility.

I like those points, and wish I had heard them sooner, but in response:

1.  Yes, generally we have, but there are groups of people the world over who do know how to survive off of what the local ecology can provide.  In fact, in the interest of broadening my education on tribalism, I've seen a few programs on the travel channel that had westerners living with and learning from a tribe in New Guinea, as well as shows on other tribe's survival practices from the Amazon.  There are also people who are nature survivalists who get dropped in the middle of no-where and travel to a pre-determined pickup location.  Survival in nature may be beyond the abilities of the vast majority of the population, but it's nowhere near impossible on an individual/familial basis.

2.  This one I agree with almost totally, and it goes along with number three to a certain extent as in the elimination of the herds of Buffalo, the destruction of vast swathes of forests to make room for the farms we have today.

3.  You're right, there is not enough huntable/gatherable foodstuffs to sustain our current population.  Technology has given us the ability to genetically alter crops, but time allowed the same thing as the domestication of certain plants followed a pattern of natural selection that reinforced traits useful to humans.  We just cut out the interim generational mutation necessary to get there.

4.  Being more environmentally acceptable is the point.  I think the systems of raiding and raping eliminated the weak and propagated those genes better suited for survival, regardless of the emotional stigmas associated with those behaviors in "Modern" society.  I have no illusions about an "eden-like" existence, but I don't see tribal behaviors as any worse than what goes on in society today.

Just for the record, reading Guns, Germs, and Steel has helped to show me reasons why certain societies have subjugated or eliminated others, and shown me the almost inevitability of a culture like ours coming to dominate a world landscape.  Even were I to wave a magic wand and return the world to groups of hunter/gatherers, eventually it would return to something resembling what we have now. 

I readily admit the impracticality of trying to establish a worldwide return to tribalism, but I think that embracing some of the good things about it (like reducing society's ecological impact and strengthening interpersonal relationships) can provide achievable goals to improve the quality of life most people experience.  It has become a part of my map, but by no means the totality of it. 

Currently I am intrigued by efforts to use technology to reduce the output of CO2 such as can be found here:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/

Hangero pointed out that currently the best thing to do is to pursue scientific answers to the problems we've created for ourselves, and that also made sense to me. 

I don't think I have all the answers, but I do think that more people should include Anarcho-Primitivism in their education, regardless of its problems, simply to expand their knowledge base and help eliminate some of the assumptions they take for granted without even knowing.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

I'm not gone, just took a minivacation coupled with a drastic scaling back of preaching opinions that have *apparently* all been covered before.  Now I only chime in when I think I have something relevant to share. 

The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

As far as my "Rock solid worldview" is concerned, I was really enthusiastic about a particular perception of the past, but, beyond the initial shock of adjustment, I have been actively pursuing further knowledge.  I realize I don't know everything, but I don't think I'll ever give up trying.  I think most of the arguments against Anarcho-primitivism rely on certain "Shared assumptions" that I don't entirely share, but when people made sense to me (like Hangero and Vexaph0d) there was constructive compromise.

I don't think EVERYONE thought poorly of me, but Rodger's opinions and judgments of me were accepted de facto by enough people to make me want to take it easy for a while, let things cool off, and maybe start posting again when I have a better feel for the audience.  What was truly amusing was how many people piled on, in addition to how peer-pressure effected those who commented on my behalf. 

I don't know if there is anything short of boredom that could make me stop reading the forum.

be careful -- a lot of the things you are describing are the type of things that (technically speaking) could fit on to a map

for example - you could have a map that includes a function that defaults to another map under certain situations (like the example you gave about using the maps of more experienced people)

your map could also have a timing/situational/adaptational element to it

dont limit yourself

Even borrowing someone else's map (as long as I've been able to understand and internalized the ideas) makes sense to me, as it is a way to broaden my range of responses and increase my total knowledge.  In my pursuit of information whenever I find conflicting ideas, I try to find what makes the most sense to me at the time, and have *usually* no qualms about discarding the bullshit.  Not limiting myself is kind of the point.

Critically analyzing new information and actively pursuing opinions that differ from the *necessarily* limited experience base that I have is important to me, but at some point trying to keep any and all relevant information pertaining to all possible causes and effects of any potential decisions to be made becomes an inefficient chore, and I make some decisions based off of a sub*un*conscious nudge in one direction versus another (usually stuff that doesn't matter).

Trying to keep the two extremes balanced is difficult, and in most things I find myself being both ends of the spectrum at the same time.  My map seems to be folded on itself, where north and south overlap, and east and west are no longer mutually exclusive.

I have the feeling I'm not understanding the whole of what you're referring to as "The Map," but I'll run with what I got so far, until more perspective comes my way.

Mostly I was referring to the identification with characters/situations in novels, along with an almost faith-like acceptance of textbook information (because of the conditioning of the educational system), and a buildup of credibility given to the advice of my father, who has time and time again been able to understand my own unique approach to things and point me in directions that save me hassle later on, or would have, had I paid attention and been able to internalize/conceptualize the lessons beyond the words.  I'm not familiar with Lilly's work, but I seem to recall reading something in connection with Richard Feynman and sense depo tanks.

The best map is the one you made yourself, as I'm sure we'll all agree.

But is is possible to actually manufacture a more perfect map than that of experience?

i agree

the individual has to make it for themselves

but there can be shared features

The map symbolism in my mind right now equates to "those reactions to outside circumstances/situations in conjunction with usual attitudes/perspectives that derive from previous information/experiences and current moods."  If this is different from what you meant, I ask for clarification.

The only times I've been able to "shortcut" my own experiential map to include more information is through books authored by people who have done more personal experience of their own in whatever field, and through the advice of people I can identify with and whose judgments I can trust (through past track record of experience following prediction).

As for the Best Map, I'd say that my personal Best Possible Map would differ widely from an outside observer's optimum for me.  Also, the criteria of a Best Map would have to change to fit the requirements of the moment, lending itself to adaptability and encouraging the broadest possible range of information/experience.

Howdy, Idem!