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So, we need a definition of beauty.

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, October 21, 2012, 08:06:21 PM

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The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Man Green on October 21, 2012, 11:48:37 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 21, 2012, 11:05:58 PM
In some cultures, women are partially crippled by having to wear high heels for extended lengths of time.  This makes them desireable.

In other cultures, women smear chemicals all over their faces, to change their complexion, or put unnatural colors around their eyes.  This makes them desireable.

Another culture has their women get their asses surgically altered, to meet an accepted standard of beauty.

It's a good thing we're not a primitive society like the Mursi or anything.

This is why I don't really ever bother with trying to define some kind of objective or specific definition of "beauty". It varies too much over time and cultures. It's like trying to define "art"; largely useless, and inevitably devolves into wankery that derails the conversation.

Hence this thread.

Like I said, beauty for me is something that I enjoy looking at or thinking about or experiencing.  I can't define it for MYSELF, let alone objectively.

But this sort of thing belongs over here in this thread.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 21, 2012, 11:54:44 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 21, 2012, 11:48:37 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 21, 2012, 11:05:58 PM
In some cultures, women are partially crippled by having to wear high heels for extended lengths of time.  This makes them desireable.

In other cultures, women smear chemicals all over their faces, to change their complexion, or put unnatural colors around their eyes.  This makes them desireable.

Another culture has their women get their asses surgically altered, to meet an accepted standard of beauty.

It's a good thing we're not a primitive society like the Mursi or anything.

This is why I don't really ever bother with trying to define some kind of objective or specific definition of "beauty". It varies too much over time and cultures. It's like trying to define "art"; largely useless, and inevitably devolves into wankery that derails the conversation.

Hence this thread.

Like I said, beauty for me is something that I enjoy looking at or thinking about or experiencing.  I can't define it for MYSELF, let alone objectively.

But this sort of thing belongs over here in this thread.

I agree, completely.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Man Green on October 21, 2012, 11:48:37 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 21, 2012, 11:05:58 PM
In some cultures, women are partially crippled by having to wear high heels for extended lengths of time.  This makes them desireable.

In other cultures, women smear chemicals all over their faces, to change their complexion, or put unnatural colors around their eyes.  This makes them desireable.

Another culture has their women get their asses surgically altered, to meet an accepted standard of beauty.

It's a good thing we're not a primitive society like the Mursi or anything.

This is why I don't really ever bother with trying to define some kind of objective or specific definition of "beauty". It varies too much over time and cultures. It's like trying to define "art"; largely useless, and inevitably devolves into wankery that derails the conversation.

Nail on head. Beauty is a reaction you have to something that happens. Art is a reaction you have to something that's made. Both subjective, regardless of how popular the opinion.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
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walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Sano

Well, I don't think discussing the meaning of beauty is useless even if you agree you can never quite get at it because a better-informed opinion about something is always, you know, better... There certainly is a lot of writings in the subject of beauty and/or art, and this is actually my main reason for studying philosophy.

Anyway, there's a case to be made that beauty (more specifically, an "aesthetic experience) occurs at least in part at a lower level than something so highly structured than the ego, so it isn't necessarily subjective.

And even if it's completely subjective or if the "hardware information" can be overridden by society there's still some gain in talking about/studying it. I mean, if you didn't you wouldn't even arrive at the conclusion that beauty is subjective.

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 22, 2012, 08:57:33 AM
Quote from: Man Green on October 21, 2012, 11:48:37 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 21, 2012, 11:05:58 PM
In some cultures, women are partially crippled by having to wear high heels for extended lengths of time.  This makes them desireable.

In other cultures, women smear chemicals all over their faces, to change their complexion, or put unnatural colors around their eyes.  This makes them desireable.

Another culture has their women get their asses surgically altered, to meet an accepted standard of beauty.

It's a good thing we're not a primitive society like the Mursi or anything.

This is why I don't really ever bother with trying to define some kind of objective or specific definition of "beauty". It varies too much over time and cultures. It's like trying to define "art"; largely useless, and inevitably devolves into wankery that derails the conversation.

Nail on head. Beauty is a reaction you have to something that happens. Art is a reaction you have to something that's made. Both subjective, regardless of how popular the opinion.

Isn't that a definition?
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Q. G. Pennyworth


LMNO

I'm going to parallel TGRR's OP. 

Beautiful = A person having an aspect that makes them enjoyable to be around.

Pretty = A person who conforms to a social set of desirability/attractiveness.


GENERALIZATION: "Pretty" is mutable, whereas "Beautiful" can trancend social sets.

I think that a lot of people switch these two up when they're either using or hearing it.  So, in regards to Nigel's OP:

-It can be true that an unpretty person can beautiful.
-It can be true that an unbeautiful person can be pretty.
-It can be true that a pretty person can be beautiful.
-It can be true that an unpretty person can be unbeautiful.

So if you're trying to tell an unpretty person that they're pretty, that's going to come off as bullshit.
And if you're trying to tell an unbeautiful person that they're beautiful, that's also bullshit.

But if you tell an unbeautiful person they're pretty, they'll eat that shit up with a spoon.

P3nT4gR4m

Beauty shifts, too. Person looks gorgeous, then you talk to them and it turns out they're a cunt - instant ugly, I can almost see them morph before my eyes. Likewise ugly person tells you their life story and it's sad as hell but they're still upbeat and they care more about other people than they do themselves and those squint eyes are suddenly sanctuary and they're beautiful cos they're not judging you.


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Anna Mae Bollocks

Pent and LMNO, in spades.

And societal conditioning has limits. I'm not into commercial men, the ones you see in movies and ads. Never got what the big deal with Kevin Costner was, yuck. And guys in ads register in my mind as gay.


Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

LMNO

More than a few of them are, actually.

But you should realize when I say "a social set of attractiveness", I don't mean the country's aggregate, I mean the genre's.

Punkers have a set of attractiveness.
Bankers have another.
Hippies like a certain look.
Bikers like another.

A goth will most likely think a pale girl with black shit all over her face and a velvet cape is "pretty".
A jock will go for the all-american blonde.

But they'll both enjoy the company of someone who is beautiful, regardless of how they're dressed.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Thanks, that just made sense of it for me.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 22, 2012, 06:15:54 PM
Pent and LMNO, in spades.

And societal conditioning has limits. I'm not into commercial men, the ones you see in movies and ads. Never got what the big deal with Kevin Costner was, yuck. And guys in ads register in my mind as gay.



I appreciate, fit, athletic looking bodies (male or female) from an aesthetic point of view and female ones turn me on a bit but the dude in that pic is a skinny, weak looking little fucker. Kinda puzzled as to who that's targeted at because presumably, for the same price, they could have hired someone similar but with a bit of muscle definition. has the "waif look" jumped from chicks to dudes or something? I must have missed that memo.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 22, 2012, 06:49:49 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 22, 2012, 06:15:54 PM
Pent and LMNO, in spades.

And societal conditioning has limits. I'm not into commercial men, the ones you see in movies and ads. Never got what the big deal with Kevin Costner was, yuck. And guys in ads register in my mind as gay.



I appreciate, fit, athletic looking bodies (male or female) from an aesthetic point of view and female ones turn me on a bit but the dude in that pic is a skinny, weak looking little fucker. Kinda puzzled as to who that's targeted at because presumably, for the same price, they could have hired someone similar but with a bit of muscle definition. has the "waif look" jumped from chicks to dudes or something? I must have missed that memo.

I think it's spillover from the old Calvin Klein decadant junkie thing. They gave him a Beaver Cleaver haircut, though. Kind of throws the whole thing off.  :lulz:
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

LMNO

Twinks and hipsters.  Twinks and hipsters.

Juana

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Eater of Clowns

I realize I've said it on the boards before, but it continues to bother me that we can't praise one type of attractiveness without degrading another.

If you're into big women, I'm pretty sure you're capable of saying that without equating anything else to ten year old boys.  It'd be like calling any average woman a fattie because you only dig supermodels.

You can include more people into a group without removing some from it, and without continuing the idea that people should be ashamed of their bodies.

And just so we're clear, I've got a body type similar to that dude if you add way more hair and I'm fucking gorgeous.   :lol:
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EoC makes creepy worse.

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