Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: The Littlest Ubermensch on June 28, 2006, 03:01:45 AM

Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on June 28, 2006, 03:01:45 AM
This is my first rant, and first post here, so tell me what you think.

   Look at the world around you, and can you say the normal, ,Äúsane,Äù individual truly lives a fulfilled life? What has happened to these individuals stripped of their identity? They are a product of a world without spirituality!
   Not that any of this is to say bullshit claiming to be the word of some great patriarch pimp in the sky is spirituality, but the soul, the primal drive for some sort of untamed, unmolded, uninhibited growth, needs to be reclaimed by man. Over the millennia we have learned religion and organization offers no solace; indeed they have only told us to destroy ourselves in anticipation of an unnamed reward.  But from where can we retain this sort of raw spiritual energy man seeks for fulfillment? Certainly Discordianism has offered the laughing disorder that frees us from withering away in an organized, restrictive world, but it is not enough!
   In this I offer the next step, cultural devolution, moving to a time when the world was still untamed by us or our order, past the beginnings of a Theocratic society to those of a Theacratic society of spiritual leaders guiding others to fufillment! What I mean is a return to the original way, the way of shamanism! Not the bullshit spouted by New Ager sellouts of ,Äúgetting in touch with your totem animal,Äù and such marketing schemes, but the techniques of spiritual ecstasy through music, dance, communal ritual, and substance use that marked the tribal worlds of early society! For a while we tried meditation, the Buddhist attempts at ,Äúquieting the mind,Äù to let in spirituality, but our generation will never truly be affected by settling down, sitting still, and forcing away our disquieting thoughts. We have gone far into what can be clich?©d as the Information Age, where our youth must process huge amounts of knowledge to simply survive. We can see around us a desperate attempt at a return to life! Even those who are still sitting on their couches are filled with discontent at the system which restricts them so, though their frustration is being tapped by whatever power hungry organization (i.e. the Religious Right, the Democratic Party, almost any corporation). Meditation is nothing but the same extinguishing of life for entrance of a new one that religion is, and will never keep hold with our society.
   But how should we cause this return to shamanism in our society completely changed from the days of shamanism? Easy friends, we must embrace (and bear with me here) the rave movement. I know what many of you will say to yourself, ,Äúthose ravers are just a bunch of dumb teens on Ecstasy looking for a new scene to attach to,Äù. But that,Äôs not the case. Raves are like any other concert, and may be even cleaner. But the specific reason for the rave is that it is absolutely a shamanistic ritual in its entirety. Pulsing music drives the ravers in the same way the shamans of old were moved by the music of the tribe; the ravers dance out of a genuine spiritual ecstasy; they immerse themselves into an environment full of heat, motion, and powerful bass drums rattling through their body to create an energy that fills them entirely; and partake inso many other shamanistic action all leading to a mass spiritual cleansing and rebirth. And from this comes secretaries, deliverymen, and others who still hate their jobs and surroundings like everyone else, but have something to live for and know that some great spiritual need has been filled within them. Shamanism can be reborn, it is already being reborn, and it can be given unto a world that cries out for it.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: deet on June 28, 2006, 06:04:23 AM
The writing's good, but you might have a wire crossed in rationalizing drug use and partying all night as 'shamanism,'

There's a bit of ritual involved in the latter, and not in the first.

I do agree that some raves can have spirtual experiences attached to them, even among the people who are sober, but many of public raves are just parties.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2006, 12:38:17 PM
That's an interesting rant... I like the idea of using action and pleasure as spiritual techniques.


But I fucking hate rave music.



LMNO
-If that's what it takes to make a shaman, I decline.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LHX on June 28, 2006, 01:26:24 PM
i agree with the comments about the short-comings of meditation in this society


i might disagree wiff the proposed alternative
but
i dig the intent of this rant




keep it moving
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 28, 2006, 05:56:09 PM
I dug the writing style, and I hope you stick around and keep it coming.

however...


ravers can basically eat the corn out of my shit.

ECH,
wants no part of THAT brand of spirituality
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on June 28, 2006, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: LMNOBut I fucking hate rave music.



LMNO
-If that's what it takes to make a shaman, I decline.

:(  Sometimes I get the feeling a lot of people have yet to listen to actual rave music. Too much crap is being pushed (like the infinitely evil DJ Sammy, and all the disgusting pop him and his droogs produce. And Happy Hardcore has frequently been mutilated until it's uber repetitive and only good when you've taken three doses of Ecstasy.) Oh well, can't argue preference.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2006, 06:01:58 PM
I've been to raves.  For a while, it was the only place to get the drugs I was looking for.



I repeat: I hate rave music.



Ok, ok:  I hate almost all rave music, just in case you want to start pestering me about it.  But that still won't get me to go to a rave, now that I've weaned myself off most drugs harder than pot.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on June 28, 2006, 06:06:54 PM
Quote from: deetThe writing's good, but you might have a wire crossed in rationalizing drug use and partying all night as 'shamanism,'

There's a bit of ritual involved in the latter, and not in the first.

I do agree that some raves can have spirtual experiences attached to them, even among the people who are sober, but many of public raves are just parties.

I didn't necessarily rationalize the drug use going on. That tends to just be the domain of idiots who want to get high at a party (though they(the substances) can be used to great effect, even if that is uncommon.)

I think the most interesting part of the rave culture is how much of it really is something spiritual for the kids who are in it, even if that's not what they originally intended on being there for. A great documentary on the scene circa the late 90's is Better Living Through Circuitry. It's quite an eye opener (though it also shows the extremely stupid side of the scene as well.)[/u][/b]
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: deet on June 28, 2006, 06:08:42 PM
Quote from: LMNOI've been to raves.  For a while, it was the only place to get the drugs I was looking for.



I repeat: I hate rave music.



Ok, ok:  I hate almost all rave music, just in case you want to start pestering me about it.  But that still won't get me to go to a rave, now that I've weaned myself off most drugs harder than pot.

a lot of times, there's confusion between dance and rave music.

Richie Hawkin (hawtin? something like that.. I think he put a few albums out as Plastikman) is minimalist, his mucis is mostly beats. The ambient music is good too.

It's not as numbing as "BOOMBOOM KAZCHWOO-WHOP! BOOMBOOM HAZCHWOO-WHOP!" with whistles and whizzers and whatever other noise the synth makes... that's not music, but they'll play it anyways, sometimes.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: deet on June 28, 2006, 06:11:19 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch
I didn't necessarily rationalize the drug use going on. That tends to just be the domain of idiots who want to get high at a party (though they(the substances) can be used to great effect, even if that is uncommon.)

I think the most interesting part of the rave culture is how much of it really is something spiritual for the kids who are in it, even if that's not what they originally intended on being there for. A great documentary on the scene circa the late 90's is Better Living Through Circuitry. It's quite an eye opener (though it also shows the extremely stupid side of the scene as well.)[/u][/b]

Oh, I think I read too much into the first part. I assumed that you were grouping every part of the rave scene. My bad.

"Better Living Through Circuitry"? I'm going to look it up, I might find it interesting.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 28, 2006, 06:51:42 PM
I actually like alot of "rave" music, as long as it's well-constructed, I just can't stand the scene itself.

and, like LMNO, I used to be fairly involved in it at one point, so it's not as tthough I'm making a snap judgement about something I know nothing about.

Happy Hardcore sucks my balls, though.  I prefer jungle (on the dirty side is better), tech-step, breaks, and dark garage.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2006, 12:52:52 PM
Happy hardcore is a fucking abomination.  Did I post the link for a happy hardcore site with no regs here, or at FC?  I can't remember now.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 30, 2006, 03:34:52 PM
you did.

and I trolled them incessantly for a day or three.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2006, 05:36:02 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch
Quote from: LMNOBut I fucking hate rave music.



LMNO
-If that's what it takes to make a shaman, I decline.

:(  Sometimes I get the feeling a lot of people have yet to listen to actual rave music.

I know.  Sometimes I get the feeling a lot of people have yet to shove their crank into a REAL meat grinder, too.

Great rant, though...but it needs more white spaces.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Commander on June 30, 2006, 09:34:35 PM
I Discovered Discordianism while involved in the Rave scene back in the mid 90's.  I think the general idea of the experience being shamanistic has some merit, I certainly had my share of growing experiences while at raves, but I don't think it is the only path to spiritualism.  It depends on the person.  It works for some, while meditation works for others, and other practices work for yet others.

As far as the music goes, I can't stand break beat, have heard very little jungle I liked, and abhor gabber.  I've heard some decent Happy Hardcore, but what really gets me is real deep house or trance and ambient variations of either.

The Orb, Orbital, William Orbit (notice a patern here?), Caberet Voltaire, Massive Attack, Rabbit in the Moon all kick ass!

As a matter of fact, the Commander, and the DIA were hatched at a rave at the Agora in Cleveland.

The Commander
DIA
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2006, 11:03:13 PM
Quote from: The CommanderI Discovered Discordianism while involved in the Rave scene back in the mid 90's.  I think the general idea of the experience being shamanistic has some merit,

"Shamanism" is bullshit in its own right.  Mushy-headed new age crap, just another trap set for you by the CoN.

At least that's the official TGRR viewpoint.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LHX on July 01, 2006, 12:24:05 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: The CommanderI Discovered Discordianism while involved in the Rave scene back in the mid 90's.  I think the general idea of the experience being shamanistic has some merit,

"Shamanism" is bullshit in its own right.  Mushy-headed new age crap, just another trap set for you by the CoN.

At least that's the official TGRR viewpoint.

beware of the voodoo magic when they walk on coal wiff their feet chakras
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Subtract Eight! on July 01, 2006, 12:36:38 AM
hey man you can say the same spiritually about any music depending on your preference if you insert another wordset

some debatable examples could be;

pulsing > techno  (edm)
refinement > classical
clever > jazz
direct > rock

something along those lines.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Felix on July 01, 2006, 06:31:20 AM
I change my musics based on what i'm doing.

Working = Explosive energy music (Rock, some techno, movie themes)
Playing = nfskioedjnfQS;OFHIOP=

Fuckit, I won't classify them all.  I'll just say: Base it in the fives.  CHS, DSC, CON, BCY, AFM.

It's all decodable.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Commander on July 03, 2006, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: The CommanderI Discovered Discordianism while involved in the Rave scene back in the mid 90's.  I think the general idea of the experience being shamanistic has some merit,

"Shamanism" is bullshit in its own right.  Mushy-headed new age crap, just another trap set for you by the CoN.

At least that's the official TGRR viewpoint.

Whatever dude.  It's your karma.

*Evil snicker*

The Commander
DIA
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: East Coast Hustle on July 03, 2006, 03:37:50 PM
civilizations that have placed any sort of stock in Shamanism have fared REALLY well throughout history.

no, really.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 04, 2006, 01:40:48 AM
Quote from: The Commander
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: The CommanderI Discovered Discordianism while involved in the Rave scene back in the mid 90's.  I think the general idea of the experience being shamanistic has some merit,

"Shamanism" is bullshit in its own right.  Mushy-headed new age crap, just another trap set for you by the CoN.

At least that's the official TGRR viewpoint.

Whatever dude.  It's your karma.

*Evil snicker*

The Commander
DIA

Karma is the biggest joke in the religious history of the world.

TGRR,
Will not lose any sleep over this.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 04, 2006, 07:01:37 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Karma is the biggest joke in the religious history of the world.

TGRR,
Will not lose any sleep over this.

I agree. Karma and all other ideas that say if you screw up now you'll pay for it after you die have got to be the biggest load of crap I've ever heard of. It's all a part of the fiction of all organized religion.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: East Coast Hustle on July 05, 2006, 05:53:05 PM
I'd like to submit myself as living proof that karma does NOT exist.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: B_M_W on July 05, 2006, 08:14:07 PM
Karma is a poor substitute for Physics.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Commander on July 06, 2006, 01:16:20 PM
Ok...first of all...it was a joke.

Second of all, you are all missing the point of karma.

Karma is merely a way to impress upon people that their actions have consequences.  Every little thing you do has an affect on the world somehow.  In most cases it is a matter of affecting people you come in contact with.  It's not about making the "right" decision, or even the decision that causes the least harm to everyone, it is about accepting responsibility for the consequences that your decisions have.  These consequences often affect you in return. You can make any decision you want, so long as you are prepared and willing to accept the consequences that result from it.

I always try to make decisions that result in me eating pie.

The Commander
DIA
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: putz on July 06, 2006, 09:15:21 PM
Consequence:  Your belly gains Buddah nature.  :wink:
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 06, 2006, 10:00:41 PM
Quote from: The CommanderOk...first of all...it was a joke.

Second of all, you are all missing the point of karma.

Karma is merely a way to impress upon people that their actions have consequences.  Every little thing you do has an affect on the world somehow.  In most cases it is a matter of affecting people you come in contact with.  It's not about making the "right" decision, or even the decision that causes the least harm to everyone, it is about accepting responsibility for the consequences that your decisions have.  These consequences often affect you in return. You can make any decision you want, so long as you are prepared and willing to accept the consequences that result from it.

I always try to make decisions that result in me eating pie.

The Commander
DIA

Then comes the parts where someone says "But if you do this, karma will kick into overdrive and (some desirable or undesirable outcome) will happen." Once the idea of Karma is accepted, a person who claims authority on the non apparent consequences of your actions can say that anything he/she doesn't like will result in a huge Karmic backlash, and the person listening is thrown into the "If I don't believe, they may be wrong and I'll have lived a full life, but it's also possible that they're right and I'll be damned for an eternity" problem. Suddenly an enforcement of the caste system like in India occurs, as the priests claim the poor were there because of their past fuckups, you'll be poor if you aren't "good" as well (which involves not helping the poor), and that the rulers had already proven themselves to be wonderful people in past lives. It's all the same BS.

Although I must admit, if plans for the karmic obtaining of pie were availible, I'd jump at the opportunity to blindly swallow dogma for the greater good of pie.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 07, 2006, 02:31:07 AM
Quote from: The Commander
Karma is merely a way to impress upon people that their actions have consequences.  

I refute this.

Ken Lay died in his sleep this morning, having not served a single day in prison.

Owned.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: maphdet on July 07, 2006, 03:27:59 AM
no shit!

go figure.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 07, 2006, 03:43:01 AM
Quote from: maphdetno shit!

go figure.

No shit.

Goodnight, funnyman!
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 07, 2006, 10:48:10 AM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch:(  Sometimes I get the feeling a lot of people have yet to listen to actual rave music. Too much crap is being pushed blablablablah
don't worry man

i like electronic music (wouldn't call it "rave" nowadays, that's really the stuff they did 10 years ago with Eat Static or when the Prodigy was still being original) and, seeing the "what are you listening to?" thread, a lot of others do as well.

i visit the occasional goa, drumnbass, electro or (hell yeah) breakcore parties. i can find myself a bit in your ideas and personally have kind of wondered among the same lines myself as well.
mostly for me such a party is a good reason to get a few hours of heavy workout ;-) [really, should do that more often hehe]

i think you could find the most people who will "dig" what you say on goa-parties. lots of hippies there, some of them perhaps actually recognizing dance-induced gnosis when they feel it, and if they do drugs it will more often be pot and shrooms than xtc coke and speed. though that may be just the scene over here, ymmv

Edit, PS i like happyhardcore. but only the ones i know from i was young. bite me
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Commander on July 07, 2006, 08:49:11 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch

Then comes the parts where someone says "But if you do this, karma will kick into overdrive and (some desirable or undesirable outcome) will happen." Once the idea of Karma is accepted, a person who claims authority on the non apparent consequences of your actions can say that anything he/she doesn't like will result in a huge Karmic backlash, and the person listening is thrown into the "If I don't believe, they may be wrong and I'll have lived a full life, but it's also possible that they're right and I'll be damned for an eternity" problem. Suddenly an enforcement of the caste system like in India occurs, as the priests claim the poor were there because of their past fuckups, you'll be poor if you aren't "good" as well (which involves not helping the poor), and that the rulers had already proven themselves to be wonderful people in past lives. It's all the same BS.

Although I must admit, if plans for the karmic obtaining of pie were availible, I'd jump at the opportunity to blindly swallow dogma for the greater good of pie.

Ok.  I have no idea what you are saying.

Please explain it to me like I am a 4 yo because your ubermensch logic has me confused.

But I can say what I was saying about Karma has nothing to do with spiritual or metaphysical concepts.  It is grounded into reality and the consequences of ones decisions in the here and now, not in the afterlife or another life.

There is also no greater good than pie.

The Commander
DIA
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Commander on July 07, 2006, 08:57:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: The Commander
Karma is merely a way to impress upon people that their actions have consequences.  

I refute this.

Ken Lay died in his sleep this morning, having not served a single day in prison.

Owned.

Quote from: The Commander
It's not about making the "right" decision, or even the decision that causes the least harm to everyone, it is about accepting responsibility for the consequences that your decisions have.

EVERY decision has consequences.  Those consequences are not always good or bad.  The consequences in return on a specific individual are not always readily apparent, but regardless, the consequences still exist.

Cause =Effect.  Isn't that a law of physics or something?

The effect I find most desirable is that which involves sex or pie, or both.

The Commander
DIA
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 08, 2006, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: The Commander
Ok.  I have no idea what you are saying.

Please explain it to me like I am a 4 yo because your ubermensch logic has me confused.

But I can say what I was saying about Karma has nothing to do with spiritual or metaphysical concepts.  It is grounded into reality and the consequences of ones decisions in the here and now, not in the afterlife or another life.

There is also no greater good than pie.

The Commander
DIA

I'm pretty sure the Hindu/Buddhist idea of karma is exactly the idea that your screwups and accomplishments will follow you into the next life and determine how things work in it, but even without reincarnation, the idea of karma is subject to abuse.
For example:
1. You believe in karma.
2. Nothing can be known with complete certainty.
3. You cannot know the entire consequences of your actions, in a butterfly effect kind of way.
4. I say that I have insider knowledge of the karmic consequences of certain actions of yours, and claim this is because of some spiritual revelation.
5. You believe at least to a small extent in the existence of spiritual revelation.
6. I say that if you eat pie, your face will be torn off by tigers.
7. There is no way of knowing if I am telling the truth.
8. You therefore must choose between eating pie with potential consequences of a tiger mauling, or not eating pie with near certainty of avoiding said tiger mauling.
9. You are a rational person.
10. Pie is not as important as not being mauled.
11. Therefore you choose not to eat pie to resist mauling, if there is enough supposed credibility in what I say (and not much is necessary.)

In that scenario, an effective banning of pie has taken place assuming I was charismatic enough to have a little credibility.
While that scenario is extreme, that sort of thing is completely possible and has occurred. Usually the person declaring karmic knowledge would find some way to make his claims impossible to prove or deny, either by saying "Oh, it'll come around in your next life" or "Sometimes mercy is granted upon you, but you also don't know when [higher power/nature/universal law] won't be so easy on you" most popularly.

By doing this, any rule that a charismatic few want to put on everyone else can be put into place under the pretenses of karma.

Though now that I think about it, I might choose pie over the fate of my tiger mauled face. *thoughtful face*
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 08, 2006, 03:38:33 AM
[quote="The Commander]Cause =Effect.  Isn't that a law of physics or something?
[/quote]

I don't place much stock in physics. It has a tendency to keep being very wrong. Examples of ideas that flew in the face of old physics/mathematics: Non-Euclidean geometry, Theory of Relativity, Theory of Gravity, fractal dimensions, 4th dimensional theories, Quantum theory, the idea of atoms not being solid, and so on.

I adamantly stand that cause and effect relationships are as fictional as the Reagan administration and the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Felix on July 08, 2006, 03:40:40 AM
Physics makes mistakes, yes.

And unscientific things don't?
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 08, 2006, 02:31:29 PM
how did fractal dimensions fly in the face of anything?
also, what do they have to do with physics?
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 08, 2006, 07:32:26 PM
Quote from: FelixPhysics makes mistakes, yes.

And unscientific things don't?

Of course not. I just don't like physics because it's much less fun than unscientific things.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 08, 2006, 07:36:52 PM
Quote from: triple zerohow did fractal dimensions fly in the face of anything?
also, what do they have to do with physics?

(I did add mathematics to the description of revolutionary things, just saying, so it doesn't necessarily have to do with physics.)

Hmm, I suppose I spoke too quickly. I shouldn't have included that, though it was a revolutionary concept and defied the Euclidean "One dimensional, two dimensional, three dimensional" categorizing system. Thanks for pointing out that example of dumbassery though.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 08, 2006, 11:41:15 PM
ah ok didn't spot the mathematics mentioning .. though still imo fractal dimension isn't really something that hit anybody in the face, more like a new more general definition of dimension .. what really kicked math in the face previous century was goedels incompleteness theorem, imo.

truly, reading that one (in Goedel Escher Bach) was one of the biggest mindfucks i ever read - i can recommend it to anyone not afraid of a littlebit of abstract math, logic and proof stuff. at least, it blew my mind and changed my life in a number of ways
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 09, 2006, 01:55:28 AM
Quote from: triple zeroah ok didn't spot the mathematics mentioning .. though still imo fractal dimension isn't really something that hit anybody in the face, more like a new more general definition of dimension .. what really kicked math in the face previous century was goedels incompleteness theorem, imo.

truly, reading that one (in Goedel Escher Bach) was one of the biggest mindfucks i ever read - i can recommend it to anyone not afraid of a littlebit of abstract math, logic and proof stuff. at least, it blew my mind and changed my life in a number of ways

Hmm...Goedel eh? I seem to remember that section in Michio Kaku's Hyperspace(yeah I know, it's not exactly a textbook, but it's all a kid like me is going to obtain and mildly understand). Something to do with space curvature? Or am I remembering something completely different?
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Felix on July 09, 2006, 04:29:28 AM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch
Quote from: FelixPhysics makes mistakes, yes.

And unscientific things don't?

Of course not. I just don't like physics because it's much less fun than unscientific things.

Aha.  I see.

Sometimes I think I'm easily amused.  Too long of an attention span, sort of thing.

This is not an invidious post.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 09, 2006, 05:19:58 PM
Quote from: The Littlest UbermenschHmm...Goedel eh? I seem to remember that section in Michio Kaku's Hyperspace(yeah I know, it's not exactly a textbook, but it's all a kid like me is going to obtain and mildly understand). Something to do with space curvature? Or am I remembering something completely different?
something completely different :-)

actually Kurt G??del (http://www.google.com/search?q=goedel&num=50), but i was too lazy to look up the umlauts again.

in short (i almost have to say here "warning plot spoiler" :) ), it's a bit about the ephimedes paradox, a version of which basically says "this sentence is false". your basic paradox.
what goedel does is, he builds up a formal math system according to very simple axioms and logical rules. he just lays down the very basics for number theory. has been done a long time before (goedel did his proof in 1931), been used first to prove simple things like "2+3=5" (would have been a nice thing for Winston to know in room 101 heh) or "there is no highest prime number", using a method called "proof by construction", meaning that the construction of a sentence/statement is also its proof. Goedel figured out a trick to have a formal statement say something about itself and constructed a statement that stated "this statement is not true", thereby pretty much kicking mathematics in the shins, blowing it up from its foundations, etc.
in the end, Goedels conclusion was something like, either a formal system is not 'strong' enough to be complete (meaning it's pretty useless), or if it is strong enough it will be possible to build a 'Goedel Sentence', meaning you can blow it up from the foundation and it's incomplete as well. that's why it's called "goedels incompleteness theorem". (i probably cut a few mathematic fundamentalistic corners here and there, don't shoot me)

oh there wikipedia sez this:
In 1931, G??del published his famous incompleteness theorems in "?úber formal unentscheidbare S?§tze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme." In that article, he proved that for any computable axiomatic system that is powerful enough to describe arithmetic on the natural numbers, then:
- The system cannot be both consistent and complete. (This is generally known as the incompleteness theorem.)
- The consistency of the axioms cannot be proved within the system.

and in the end Goedel died of starvation caused by paranoia.

also, he always wore black all the time.

ahaha i like this guy .. wikipedia sez: G??del had a most distinguished coach for his citizenship exam: Albert Einstein, who had earlier earned his own citizenship, but knowing of G??del's unpredictable behavior, was concerned that his friend might somehow behave erratically during the exam. Einstein accompanied G??del to the hearing. To everyone's consternation, G??del suddenly informed the presiding judge that he had discovered a way in which a dictatorship could be legally installed in the United States. ^_^

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Kurt_G??del.jpg/180px-Kurt_G??del.jpg)
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 09, 2006, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: triple zeroin short (i almost have to say here "warning plot spoiler" :) ), it's a bit about the ephimedes paradox, a version of which basically says "this sentence is false". your basic paradox.
what goedel does is, he builds up a formal math system according to very simple axioms and logical rules. he just lays down the very basics for number theory. has been done a long time before (goedel did his proof in 1931), been used first to prove simple things like "2+3=5" (would have been a nice thing for Winston to know in room 101 heh) or "there is no highest prime number", using a method called "proof by construction", meaning that the construction of a sentence/statement is also its proof. Goedel figured out a trick to have a formal statement say something about itself and constructed a statement that stated "this statement is not true", thereby pretty much kicking mathematics in the shins, blowing it up from its foundations, etc.
in the end, Goedels conclusion was something like, either a formal system is not 'strong' enough to be complete (meaning it's pretty useless), or if it is strong enough it will be possible to build a 'Goedel Sentence', meaning you can blow it up from the foundation and it's incomplete as well. that's why it's called "goedels incompleteness theorem". (i probably cut a few mathematic fundamentalistic corners here and there, don't shoot me)

oh there wikipedia sez this:
In 1931, G??del published his famous incompleteness theorems in "?úber formal unentscheidbare S?§tze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme." In that article, he proved that for any computable axiomatic system that is powerful enough to describe arithmetic on the natural numbers, then:
- The system cannot be both consistent and complete. (This is generally known as the incompleteness theorem.)
- The consistency of the axioms cannot be proved within the system.

and in the end Goedel died of starvation caused by paranoia.

also, he always wore black all the time.

ahaha i like this guy .. wikipedia sez: G??del had a most distinguished coach for his citizenship exam: Albert Einstein, who had earlier earned his own citizenship, but knowing of G??del's unpredictable behavior, was concerned that his friend might somehow behave erratically during the exam. Einstein accompanied G??del to the hearing. To everyone's consternation, G??del suddenly informed the presiding judge that he had discovered a way in which a dictatorship could be legally installed in the United States. ^_^

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Kurt_G??del.jpg/180px-Kurt_G??del.jpg)

:shock:
I dig it. Godel proved that math can never be entirely right. The dude deserves a special place in my pantheon of crazy geniuses.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 09, 2006, 08:54:04 PM
Quote from: The Littlest UbermenschI dig it. Godel proved that math can never be entirely right.
yea and he did it from the most simple number theory thing, meaning you don't even need complicated obscure etheric math stuff like uncountable infinite sets or real numbers (which cause most of the other math paradoxes thanks to the axiom of choice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice)), but just counting natural numbers

the book "Goedel Escher Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter explains Goedels incompleteness theorem in a way easily understood by anyone with a good brain for math and logic (but no prerequisite knowledge necessary) and also talks about a whole bunch of other interesting subjects .. the few chapters about the incompleteness theorem pretty much blew my mind, i really gotta read that book again sometime :)
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 10, 2006, 12:46:34 AM
Quote from: triple zeroyea and he did it from the most simple number theory thing, meaning you don't even need complicated obscure etheric math stuff like uncountable infinite sets or real numbers (which cause most of the other math paradoxes thanks to the axiom of choice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice)), but just counting natural numbers

the book "Goedel Escher Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter explains Goedels incompleteness theorem in a way easily understood by anyone with a good brain for math and logic (but no prerequisite knowledge necessary) and also talks about a whole bunch of other interesting subjects .. the few chapters about the incompleteness theorem pretty much blew my mind, i really gotta read that book again sometime :)

Okay, now about the Axiom of Choice. I read up the Wiki and it says
QuoteThe axiom of choice states:

Let X be a set of non-empty sets. Then we can choose a single member from each set in X.
A choice function is a function on a collection of sets X such that for every set s in X, f(s) is an element of s. With this concept, the axiom can be stated:

For any set of non-empty sets, X, there exists a choice function f defined on X.
Or alternatively:

An arbitrary Cartesian product of non-empty sets is non-empty.
Or most compactly:

Every set of nonempty sets has a choice function.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that just say "If there's something that has stuff in it, there's at least one particular article of stuff in it?" And more basically, isn't that just a harder to grasp way of saying "x=x"?
Ugh, number theory makes me want to jump off a bridge.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 10, 2006, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: The Littlest UbermenschNow correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that just say "If there's something that has stuff in it, there's at least one particular article of stuff in it?" And more basically, isn't that just a harder to grasp way of saying "x=x"?
Ugh, number theory makes me want to jump off a bridge.
well it kind of gets tricky once the set is infinite or fractal or something. but really i wouldn't know, this is tricky stuff. i don't understand it. all i can say is i think that bucky fuller would probably not approve of it.

but really i shouldn't talk about things i don't know shit about. so drop the AC bit, if you read wikipedia you know as much as i do :)
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2006, 02:26:02 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch
Quote from: The Commander
Ok.  I have no idea what you are saying.

Please explain it to me like I am a 4 yo because your ubermensch logic has me confused.

But I can say what I was saying about Karma has nothing to do with spiritual or metaphysical concepts.  It is grounded into reality and the consequences of ones decisions in the here and now, not in the afterlife or another life.

There is also no greater good than pie.

The Commander
DIA

I'm pretty sure the Hindu/Buddhist idea of karma is exactly the idea that your screwups and accomplishments will follow you into the next life and determine how things work in it, but even without reincarnation, the idea of karma is subject to abuse.
For example:
1. You believe in karma.
2. Nothing can be known with complete certainty.
3. You cannot know the entire consequences of your actions, in a butterfly effect kind of way.
4. I say that I have insider knowledge of the karmic consequences of certain actions of yours, and claim this is because of some spiritual revelation.
5. You believe at least to a small extent in the existence of spiritual revelation.
6. I say that if you eat pie, your face will be torn off by tigers.
7. There is no way of knowing if I am telling the truth.
8. You therefore must choose between eating pie with potential consequences of a tiger mauling, or not eating pie with near certainty of avoiding said tiger mauling.
9. You are a rational person.
10. Pie is not as important as not being mauled.
11. Therefore you choose not to eat pie to resist mauling, if there is enough supposed credibility in what I say (and not much is necessary.)

In that scenario, an effective banning of pie has taken place assuming I was charismatic enough to have a little credibility.
While that scenario is extreme, that sort of thing is completely possible and has occurred. Usually the person declaring karmic knowledge would find some way to make his claims impossible to prove or deny, either by saying "Oh, it'll come around in your next life" or "Sometimes mercy is granted upon you, but you also don't know when [higher power/nature/universal law] won't be so easy on you" most popularly.

By doing this, any rule that a charismatic few want to put on everyone else can be put into place under the pretenses of karma.

Though now that I think about it, I might choose pie over the fate of my tiger mauled face. *thoughtful face*


That only works if you're too lazy to do a pie-eating experiment, and you trust people who say things that are not verifiable.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2006, 02:30:23 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch
Quote from: The CommanderCause =Effect.  Isn't that a law of physics or something?

I don't place much stock in physics. It has a tendency to keep being very wrong. Examples of ideas that flew in the face of old physics/mathematics: Non-Euclidean geometry, Theory of Relativity, Theory of Gravity, fractal dimensions, 4th dimensional theories, Quantum theory, the idea of atoms not being solid, and so on.

I adamantly stand that cause and effect relationships are as fictional as the Reagan administration and the assassination of John F. Kennedy.


Physics is a science, and therefore a self-correcting mechanism.  The same cannot be said for most non-scientific systems.

QuoteOf course not. I just don't like physics because it's much less fun than unscientific things.

You obviously haven't really understood physics, then.  That shit is weirder (and more fun) than most.

And Goedel's proof obviously stems for the fact that numbers (and, by extension, math) is an abstract concept and is therefore open to manipulation and paradox.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Commander on July 10, 2006, 03:06:00 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch


4. I say that I have insider knowledge of the karmic consequences of certain actions of yours, and claim this is because of some spiritual revelation.

Usually the person declaring karmic knowledge would find some way to make his claims impossible to prove or deny, either by saying "Oh, it'll come around in your next life" or "Sometimes mercy is granted upon you, but you also don't know when [higher power/nature/universal law] won't be so easy on you" most popularly.


Keep in mind I am talking theory. There is no accounting for individual naivete or stupidity.

Again, you are assuming some supernatural element to the equation.  You are correct in that the consequences of your actions cannot be known for certain, but that applies to everyone, not just yourself.  No one can know the full effect of ones consequences.  The examples of influence you give require the person attempting to influence someone to have or claim to have supernatural or spiritual knowledge of such things.  I take that sort of thing out of the equation. Anyone who claims such knowledge is not to be trusted.  Besides, the Buddha said "Be a lamp unto yourself". In other words, think for yourself!

An individual might not know the true extent of the consequences of their actions, but we can still try to take actions that we think will bring a positive effect on those around us, or if you are Discordian, a creatively chaotic effect on those around us, in the hopes that the ultimate result will be a positive one on us.

It seems utterly daft to me that anyone could deny that their actions have effects on those around them, for good or ill.  It also seems equaly daft, although perhaps slightly more understandable, that people would make decisions that have negative effects.

The Commander
DIA
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 10, 2006, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: LMNOPhysics is a science, and therefore a self-correcting mechanism.  The same cannot be said for most non-scientific systems.

QuoteOf course not. I just don't like physics because it's much less fun than unscientific things.

You obviously haven't really understood physics, then.  That shit is weirder (and more fun) than most.

And Goedel's proof obviously stems for the fact that numbers (and, by extension, math) is an abstract concept and is therefore open to manipulation and paradox.

I know all of that. I was just joking around. And I certainly know how weird and trippy physics gets, but the actual leg work behind it, the calculations and logic puzzles, drives me nuts. In the immortal words of Butt Head, "I'm like, angry at numbers. There are like, too many of them and stuff."
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 10, 2006, 04:04:59 PM
Quote from: The CommanderKeep in mind I am talking theory. There is no accounting for individual naivete or stupidity.

Again, you are assuming some supernatural element to the equation.  You are correct in that the consequences of your actions cannot be known for certain, but that applies to everyone, not just yourself.  No one can know the full effect of ones consequences.  The examples of influence you give require the person attempting to influence someone to have or claim to have supernatural or spiritual knowledge of such things.  I take that sort of thing out of the equation. Anyone who claims such knowledge is not to be trusted.  Besides, the Buddha said "Be a lamp unto yourself". In other words, think for yourself!

An individual might not know the true extent of the consequences of their actions, but we can still try to take actions that we think will bring a positive effect on those around us, or if you are Discordian, a creatively chaotic effect on those around us, in the hopes that the ultimate result will be a positive one on us.

It seems utterly daft to me that anyone could deny that their actions have effects on those around them, for good or ill.  It also seems equaly daft, although perhaps slightly more understandable, that people would make decisions that have negative effects.

1. I didn't actually imply a supernatural element. I meant one that was made up, though I can see where that idea came from.

2. Once removing naivete, what you say is entirely true, though I disagree with you that people wouldn't want to make decisions that have negative effects. People are masochistic, as far as I've seen. Although perhaps it's a reflection of the inherent daft-ness of mankind to make intentionally negative decisions.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: Triple Zero on July 10, 2006, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: LMNOAnd Goedel's proof obviously stems for the fact that numbers (and, by extension, math) is an abstract concept and is therefore open to manipulation and paradox.
don't say that too quickly. i'll read GEB again and i'll get back on this. a whole bunch of mathematical paradoxes are based on numbers and/or an illusionary concept of infinity, but i'm not sure if this is the case for goedel's, it seems to operate on a bit more fundamental level.

but i'll get back on it. (i kind of hope the paradox will allow me to -at least partially- invalidate one of the basic premises, like deduction or induction)

wait a minute wasn't the concept of induction already contested in some philosophical way?

let's just say i'll get back on it
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2006, 04:28:47 PM
I didn't mean to say that Goedel based his proof on that numbers were abstract, I mean that since numbers are abstract, paradoxes can be generated within their game rules.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2006, 04:44:41 PM
Numbers are arbitrary.

Just saying.

Humans have an incessant need to encapsulate every concept it conjures up.  
Of course I've just done that with these arbitrary symbols we call letters.  

What a viscous circle we weave.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2006, 04:45:36 PM
Yup.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LHX on July 10, 2006, 04:53:44 PM
the power of suggestion
the ability to create


we play with big loaded guns, and nobody seems to realize it or want to accept the responsibility of possessing these things



even i am still shooting my mouth off




specific symbols are arbitrary
symbols in general seem to be inescapably necessary
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2006, 05:02:51 PM
Of course.

Otherwise we'd all be just staring at each other.

And in some cases that may not be an inviting option.

Damn our restrictive inter-human communications systems.
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: LHX on July 10, 2006, 05:13:40 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?Of course.

Otherwise we'd all be just staring at each other.

And in some cases that may not be an inviting option.

Damn our restrictive inter-human communications systems.

did i ever tell you you have nice eyes?
Title: Techno Will Save Your Soul
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2006, 05:26:30 PM
Yeah, well, I have a face perfect for radio.   :wink: