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Ah, I see.

Well, from where I'm standing the misunderstanding is fairly obvious (we're using entirely different definitions of the word reason), and I don't disagree with Nigel's premise.

So nuff' said, I guess?

To be honest I'm more interested in how Dok's original story is going than in this weird-ass argument(s).

Perhaps we're not using the same definition of reason. To make sure we're on the same page, http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/reason%5Bverb%5D?show=0&t=1335912370

I'm 100% sure we aren't.

You (I think): "People have to reason to make any kind of idea."

Me: "People think they are being sooo smart but really they're just dumb and stuff."

So, in that respect we are both right? Now we just have to figure out who is MORE right, and that person obviously gets life-points ^{(a registered trademark of buffalo rock)}.

Please apply science and then talk.

Not sure what you are getting at, since we are (were?) arguing entirely different points.

Perhaps we're not using the same definition of reason. To make sure we're on the same page, http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/reason%5Bverb%5D?show=0&t=1335912370

I'm 100% sure we aren't.

You (I think): "People have to reason to make any kind of idea."

Me: "People think they are being sooo smart but really they're just dumb and stuff."

So, in that respect we are both right? Now we just have to figure out who is MORE right, and that person obviously gets life-points ^{(a registered trademark of buffalo rock)}.

This is me reading essentially every other post in this thread:

"OH, SHIT!"

Also, it pains me how we have literally voted criminals into office and people STILL DON'T GET IT, MAN!

Meh.

I second that disagreement, obviously. But potentially for different reasons.

When I say ideas based in reason I'm talking about something that was prepared using sound logic. A lot of people claim to be using logic, and they may have reasoned their way to a conclusion, but that conclusion can still end up being wrong.

I guess my point there is that someone can reason their way to an unreasonable conclusion. Just because you observe something and make what you perceive to be an informed decision doesn't actually make you right.

For instance, if you still disagree, you could note that I think I'm using logic to arrive at a legitimate conclusion. That doesn't actually make me right.

I just mindfucked myself.

People who won't STFU about *insert band here*, especially Tool.

GAH, Tool fans are the worst.


Also!

Reality TV
People who watch reality TV
People with deeply held sacred beliefs. The Universe doesn't give a fuck, neither do I.
red lights
Being told what to do
When women listen to music that objectifies women. Nikki Minaj is pretty popular right now.
Broccoli

I think DukeVonRathbobe would be a good name.

Seconded.

Thirded?

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

You know, most people have an idea, and then go around talking about how reasonable it is and how much sense it makes, and BY THE WAY what is up with those non-nuking France types and why can't they just think for themselves like pro-nuking France types do.

Or you could talk to some 9/11 conspiracy types. They're all about logic and reason, but generally the only reason their ideas are based on is whatever reason they had for not looking up counterpoints to their own arguments, like a person interested in the truth might do.

I guess the argument starts to fall apart when you consider things like medical research that brings us cures for diseases. In theory, those were probably made using some kind of logical approach.

QUIZZICAL

          ,yet skeptical mr.spock face looking at you

Don't worry, as a professional delivery person, I am more than qualified probably full of shit.

Yeah, I'm getting that impression.  He should wear a t-shirt saying "U MAD BRO?". 

I like poking logical holes in such people's arguments.  It inevitably reduces them to a frothing rage.  Especially libertarian types, who have to believe their ideas are based on Reason, and thus are superior to everyone else.

I think I'm at the point where I'm not sure "ideas based on reason" are a thing.

Sure they are.

They're just really bad at reaching predetermined, irrational conclusions so they tend not to get a lot of love.

Good point.

I guess what I really meant there is that when I hear somebody claim to have made a decision or formed an opinion based on reason, I usually don't have a lot of faith in what is about to happen.

Or, if you like, there are a lot of "ideas based on reason", but very few ideas based on reason.

Yeah, I'm getting that impression.  He should wear a t-shirt saying "U MAD BRO?". 

I like poking logical holes in such people's arguments.  It inevitably reduces them to a frothing rage.  Especially libertarian types, who have to believe their ideas are based on Reason, and thus are superior to everyone else.

I think I'm at the point where I'm not sure "ideas based on reason" are a thing.

"Ron Paul is a friend to anarchists, because he supports property rights."   <--- No shit.  He said that.

HUH?!

Ask him which is more important - dismantling the state (which, accepting the anarchist premise, is the greatest threat to property rights) or picking a benevolent overlord to make sure the state is a little bit less bad than normal, for a short time.

This thread is highly amusing.

No. We are marching towards a Utopia.  You just haven't realised it yet.

I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.

True enough.

Pol Pot was a Utopian.

All Utopias are built on a foundation of skulls.

Well, that just seems like it wouldn't be up to code.

Really though, it had never occurred to me until this thread that most dictatorships have been the result of utopian ideals. Very interesting.

No. We are marching towards a Utopia.  You just haven't realised it yet.

I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.

True enough.

Pol Pot was a Utopian.

Every moment a Discordian spends NOT being mindfucked is purgatory. Confusion is the most Holy of mental states; sez so right in the book.

But do you really believe that?

I pick and choose what to believe from my holy book, just like every good religious devotee.

No. We are marching towards a Utopia.  You just haven't realised it yet.

This.

Or actually, if I'm being 100% honest, we're probably not moving in any one direction. I mean, war and corrupt politics have always been a thing. But we are very slowly fading out old prejudices and establishing a new civil rights.

On the other hand, I can't look out into the world without going "Jesus FUCK we are all going to die."

Probably for every horrible step backwards we take, there is a similar step forward. Although, in the long, long, long run we're all going to be screwed without question. Like RWHN pointed out, humankind has an expiration date.

Or I'm just an asshole.