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Pathways: An open-source study and exploration. (Paths and Shrapnel)

Started by AFK, July 03, 2007, 02:39:40 PM

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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 03, 2007, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 03, 2007, 08:47:08 PM
I think shrapnel is a pretty good metaphor, except perhaps it's linear feel. That is, the shrapnel, sort of happens AT us from time period X to time period X+"time till shrapnel hits us". Yet, our experiences seem to be more interactive, I think. That is we affect our surrounding which in turn effects us (maybe like us stepping on an IED), however, that effect then becomes causes for further effects... almost like a room full of set mouse traps. Once you throw the ping pong ball in... everything goes nuts. I think RAW worded it as "interacting processes non-simultaneously apprehended" or a "causal feedback loop".

That seems to be the only real nit I can pick... nice metaphor!

Well, the way I see it, while Shrapnel is coming at us from others and other things, we too are also creating or are part of creating the shrapnel for others.  A teacher is a good example.  The teacher him or herself has Shrapnel coming at him in his home life and professional life.  But, as a teacher, he is part of the education system which is exerting influence over children.  So yeah, it definitely is a give and take system. 

Why I think this metaphor is useful, and this is something I'll get to in my further chapters, is that being able to identify individual bits of shrapnel, and documenting their effects, can help one look at ways to target those influences that cause bad situations for people and society.  This kind of gets into the syndemics stuff I posted awhile back.  Because it is clear that multiple afflictions, whether on a personal or societal level, can be tied into common denominators.  But, I'm getting ahead of myself. 

This seems like good stuff! Maybe the trick is to start out with interacting processes->drill down to examining single bits of shrapnel (both headed at you and coming from you) then flying back out to impress that while we can order reality enough to examine a single "cause", we must keep in mind the constant and interacting whole...

I like this train of thought. Have you begun to consider presentation? (Do you see it as a philosophical treatise, or hidden in an allagory/myth/parable, or a conversation between different individuals (real, fictional, historical) or any other ideas?)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

B_M_W

Quote from: Payne on July 03, 2007, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on July 03, 2007, 06:36:07 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 03, 2007, 04:07:10 PM
clarify:

so basically the 'shrapnel' model posits that we're under constant bombardment by shrapnel - bits of meaning and symbols exploded from other nearby points (such as religion, the media, all those things on your diagram). Exposure to these bits causes our path to change - sometimes towards it, sometimes away from it. We too are in a constant state of explosion, projecting shrapnel into others paths


is that what you're going for, Rev?

If shrapnel = memes, then I'm on board.

Holla BMW, as you may be able to tell, I'm STILL riffing off the Physics/Philosophy thing ( I do never learn my lesson) anything you pick up on that I've screwed up Physics wise, please tell me!

This goes to anyone else versed in science also.

Ehh...if its physics, LMNO is a much better source of information. I was just adding my $0.02
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

     --Reverse Brainwashing: A Guide http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=9801.0


6.5 billion Buddhas walking around.

99.xxxxxxx% forgot they are Buddha.

Payne

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on July 03, 2007, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: Payne on July 03, 2007, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on July 03, 2007, 06:36:07 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 03, 2007, 04:07:10 PM
clarify:

so basically the 'shrapnel' model posits that we're under constant bombardment by shrapnel - bits of meaning and symbols exploded from other nearby points (such as religion, the media, all those things on your diagram). Exposure to these bits causes our path to change - sometimes towards it, sometimes away from it. We too are in a constant state of explosion, projecting shrapnel into others paths


is that what you're going for, Rev?

If shrapnel = memes, then I'm on board.

Holla BMW, as you may be able to tell, I'm STILL riffing off the Physics/Philosophy thing ( I do never learn my lesson) anything you pick up on that I've screwed up Physics wise, please tell me!

This goes to anyone else versed in science also.

Ehh...if its physics, LMNO is a much better source of information. I was just adding my $0.02

Righty. It's just cause I know you have a decent knowledge of scientific method, and you can point out if I'm being a fool....  8)

B_M_W

Quote from: Payne on July 03, 2007, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on July 03, 2007, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: Payne on July 03, 2007, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on July 03, 2007, 06:36:07 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 03, 2007, 04:07:10 PM
clarify:

so basically the 'shrapnel' model posits that we're under constant bombardment by shrapnel - bits of meaning and symbols exploded from other nearby points (such as religion, the media, all those things on your diagram). Exposure to these bits causes our path to change - sometimes towards it, sometimes away from it. We too are in a constant state of explosion, projecting shrapnel into others paths


is that what you're going for, Rev?

If shrapnel = memes, then I'm on board.

Holla BMW, as you may be able to tell, I'm STILL riffing off the Physics/Philosophy thing ( I do never learn my lesson) anything you pick up on that I've screwed up Physics wise, please tell me!

This goes to anyone else versed in science also.

Ehh...if its physics, LMNO is a much better source of information. I was just adding my $0.02

Righty. It's just cause I know you have a decent knowledge of scientific method, and you can point out if I'm being a fool....  8)

ah, yeah that. That I can do, and have no problem doing.  8)
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

     --Reverse Brainwashing: A Guide http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=9801.0


6.5 billion Buddhas walking around.

99.xxxxxxx% forgot they are Buddha.

LHX

neat hell

Payne

Quote from: LHX on July 04, 2007, 04:48:33 AM
i am jonesing to jump in on this discussion

Hey X! Not seen you for a while.

You'll find a lot of the material I'm posting in here was actually derived from those ideas I was working on for your site.

Payne

Dynamic Explosions?

We are bombarded with information daily. Some of this is good, some bad, most is ignored.

Where do the explosions originate? Everything and everyone. Every person, regardless of whether they interact with you or not, leave their own traces and influences on the fabric of life, affecting some people who affect others and so on. The effects are subject to diminishing returns, of course, but much like the 'Butterfly Effect', the results of small changes can never be adequately predicted.

The more 'power' a person has, the greater their influence, either local (such as the power a parent has over their child, which will manifest itself over a relatively small area, but still has signifigant impact on the child itself) or general (the effects of political decisions can have global consequencs, but don't tend to affect individuals as specifically).

As this is a continual process, we are bombarded from every angle at all times. We even do it ourselves, affecting those around us in the same way.

The bombardment can also be transmitted through various media, but effects are more varied. For some of us, we are less affected by media, and are more likely to dampen the impact by calling "Bull Shit!", other peoples lives can be entirely dictated by the next episode of a reality TV show.

My aim is to quantify some of these effects, and to define what differing conditions can have on these affects.

I would like to think that an understanding of this can provide a person with another weapon, or another shield.

My thoughts on the subject so far lead me to believe:

~that we need to take into account a persons own varied response to stimuli,

~that we need to look at grouping similar influences (either under a system like "the ages of man" or one of "origins/angles of impact"),

~the possibility of short- medium- and long-term after effects and

~unifying this concept, D Cups "ripple" model, and the "entanglement" model (sorry, I forget who started that one, was it 000?), all of which have merit, but seem to fall short of a simple method of conveying meaningful answers to these questions. Or even being simple.

Triple Zero

yeah entanglement! i view it more like--as i explained Payne on IRC--some sort of cartoonish superglue. the kind that gets all over the floor and then the characters try to walk over it, but they get stuck and draw long strands of sticky glue like mozzarella and then try to get loose but in the process they fall over and stick to eachother and it all becomes a horrible mess and before you know it everybody is connected and entangled with eachother and there appear vast and intricate webs of long and short and thick and thin synapse-like strands pulling and pushing everybody everywhere on every movement they make.

---------

but apart from that, why are we discussing this at all? so we're looking for some sort of complicated metaphore for .. life, basically.

what does this have to do with discordianism, still?

it sounds to me more like some sort of generalized atheistic worldview of "everything affects everything" and that through life things and ideas and events affect you in a bigger or smaller way, depending on how much the factor resonates with your being, in the broadest sense of the word.

great.

but doesn't everybody who doesn't believe their life is being dictated by some sort of God already know this?

most importantly, i think

at what point do we stop thinking "holy shit i'm being bombarded by all this shrapnel all the time and it's totally nailing my reality grid", and start taking control ?

Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: triple zero on July 05, 2007, 11:54:27 AM

at what point do we stop thinking "holy shit i'm being bombarded by all this shrapnel all the time and it's totally nailing my reality grid", and start taking control ?


Around the time we work out that most humans are weak, stupid, predictable and easily manipulated to our own advantage.

Then all you have to get over is whatever 'conscience' and 'morality' bullshit you're still carrying around from your cabbage days and you're good to go.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
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walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Triple Zero

ah right

it should be us discordians standing on the sidelines firing the shrapnel at the cabbages
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

AFK

Quote from: triple zero on July 05, 2007, 11:54:27 AM
but apart from that, why are we discussing this at all? so we're looking for some sort of complicated metaphore for .. life, basically.

not necessarily.  Honestly, my first intention was to simply share things I've been thinking about and that I think do have some bearings on Discordianism and some of the stuff we've discussed in the past.  I'm not proposing that this should be the "next BIP", the next metaphor or anything.  I just simply wanted to discuss.  It seemed, and it had been commented by some, that this type of discussion had been lacking as of late.  So, this was my attempt at throwing something out to get it going again.  Whatever happens afterwards is whatever we want to have happen. 

Quotewhat does this have to do with discordianism, still?

I think it gets at some of the central tenets of Discordianism.  Awareness and Being Yourself being a couple of primary ones I'm thinking of.  I think being aware of what impacts is useful, at least it is to me.  I think it's along the same ideas of the BIP.  If you are aware that you have the freedom of movement from cell to cell, you then will have that awareness and ability to do so.  In what I'm talking about, if you are aware of the level of impact the Shrapnel, or whatever you want to call it, has on you, then you can brace yourself, buffer yourself and have more control over how you navigate your path.  Or, if it is something worthwhile, like art, music, athletics, to fully embrace it and let it enrich your life, to kind of pave the path in gold or something. 

Quoteit sounds to me more like some sort of generalized atheistic worldview of "everything affects everything" and that through life things and ideas and events affect you in a bigger or smaller way, depending on how much the factor resonates with your being, in the broadest sense of the word.

it maybe.  But sometimes I think it is worth to dig deeper then that general view and to examine some specifics.  For example, I have come to know many Christians as I've grown up.  I've known some who embrace their religion but in a way that doesn't isolate themselves from the rest of society.  They are able to integrate and still hold on to their beliefs.  I've also known some who are more isolationist from society.  They are so frightened and angry with the elements of society they deem to be unholy, they'd rather just go to church and not have anything to do with anyone else.  So I'm looking at this at a level of higher specificity beyond "everything affects everything". 


Quotebut doesn't everybody who doesn't believe their life is being dictated by some sort of God already know this?

in my experience, no.  But then again, the point of this discussion isn't to sermonize and preach to the vast populous.  At this point, it is simply a discussion. 

Quoteat what point do we stop thinking "holy shit i'm being bombarded by all this shrapnel all the time and it's totally nailing my reality grid", and start taking control ?

Good question.  There is certainly an element of willingness on the part of the individual.  Again, however, I want to point out that as I'm visualizing it, Shrapnel isn't inherently a negative.  There are also good elements that should be embraced that can enrich a person. 

Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

Quote from: Ratatosk on July 03, 2007, 09:29:11 PM
This seems like good stuff! Maybe the trick is to start out with interacting processes->drill down to examining single bits of shrapnel (both headed at you and coming from you) then flying back out to impress that while we can order reality enough to examine a single "cause", we must keep in mind the constant and interacting whole...

I like this train of thought. Have you begun to consider presentation? (Do you see it as a philosophical treatise, or hidden in an allagory/myth/parable, or a conversation between different individuals (real, fictional, historical) or any other ideas?)

No, I really haven't considered any sort of presentation form.  If it is something that we as a collective tinker with and come up with something that would be cool.  If not I see it, at least my contributions, being kind of my "LMNO-PI" or "The City" if you will.  Something I'll continuously tinker with and add on to. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Forteetu

Quote from: triple zero on July 05, 2007, 11:54:27 AM

it sounds to me more like some sort of generalized atheistic worldview of "everything affects everything" and that through life things and ideas and events affect you in a bigger or smaller way, depending on how much the factor resonates with your being, in the broadest sense of the word.


I'd have to say that this doesn't seem Atheisitic to me, but much more along the lines of eastern philosophies involving Dharma "The Path" and Karma "The ever difficult to nail down, universal bank account"

The traveling from A to B, the path set before us where the destination is all the same and the paths there are infinite is the Dharma of our lives, the spectrum or range of those infinite paths that are born into.  The hand that we are dealt to play with. The resulting decisions and paths create the multitude of spin-offs, karmic events, shapnels, ripples whatever you would like to call them.

So what I'm getting is kind of an updated metaphor for this same fundamental principle? A metaphor written in a militaristic framework? I suppose it could appeal to the over-militarised, modern population of the USA.  
WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu

AFK

Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Forteetu

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 05, 2007, 02:24:02 PM
I'd say it's as militaristic as the BIP was penal. 

With the recent discussion on language as a tool and a powerful one in consideration of building the desired framework of delivering a message, doesn't "shrapnel" tend to start the piece off on a negative conotation that you then have to spend energy in re-defining someone's immediate response to the word shrapnel?

Or is the intent to use the response of the reader to the idea of being hit with shrapnel as part of the mechanism for opening up the mental crack and letting the truth seep in?

WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu