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Bars and Self-Identity

Started by AFK, September 21, 2007, 03:29:54 PM

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AFK

Okay, something I've been gnashing on in the noggin lately.  I threw it on a Gliffy.

Basically, I was thinking about the BIP again.  Thinking about the bars. 

I've also been thinking lately about Identity and Self-Identity.  It would seem, to me, like when we think of "Who We Are", we are basing it on things that are in the forefront of our mind.  For example, I was born and raised in Aroostook County Maine, all of my adult life has been, NOT in Aroostook County Maine.  Yet, I still self-identify as an Aroostook County Mainer. 

So, I'm thinking about the bars again.  So, maybe, it's the bars that are those things in the fore-front, the elements of our Self-Identity.  And the "spaces" are the elements that DO affect who we are and how we behave, but we don't ourselves incorporate that into our Self-Identity, or at least, not in any meaningful way.  But, if we allow ourselves to become introspective, if we magnify the spaces between the bars, we recognize and see that the "spaces" are not spaces, but indeed smaller bars. 

Anyway, I know some have mentioned that the BIP has been played out, but I couldn't help these thoughts from coming out and I wanted to throw them out there nonetheless.  The graphic is to follow.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

#1


edit:  Yeah, I see the typo, just ignore it. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cramulus

:mittens:

This is a very relevant topic in my life right now. Over the last few months, I've been trying to help out a good friend who is suffering from this exact topic. He is given to excessive self definition which is leading to what I've called Ego Sickness

One of my primary pushes is to convince him that e-prime is a very positive tool when used in regards to the self.

For example, he'll spend twenty minutes noodling on his new guitar, get frustrated, and say "I'm no good at the guitar." Dude, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I'm having trouble learning how to play the guitar" than define yourself as bad at it forever? He's not convinced, though, that a shift in language use will result in a cognitive reality-tunnel shift.


QuoteAnyway, I know some have mentioned that the BIP has been played out, but I couldn't help these thoughts from coming out and I wanted to throw them out there nonetheless.

Not played out! I do feel that we've exhausted the existing discussion topics. Personally, I attribute this more to the current vibe of the posters here than the nature of the content.

In time we'll get more GO DO energy. These waves have valleys and crests.

LMNO

I'm pretty slammed at work, so i can't respond in full, so i'll go with an imperfect sound bite:

Definitions of the self are inherently limiting, but are also strictly necessary.  Without the definitions (limitations/bars/etc) of who we are, we are without a sense of identity.


More examples of how we can never break out of the prison, ITT.

AFK

I think it's a curious thing, how people Identify themselves.  And how, in turn, this can affect how they identify with other humans, and the larger world beyond them. 

Another thing that made me think of this diagram is people who let others shape their self-identity.  An example I can think of is one of my Aunt's who was pretty much a Helicopter-mom.  Hovering over my cousin, making all of her decisions for her, not in an aggressive, dictator sort of way.  But, basically challenging my cousin's ability to think for herself and choose the right things.  And so, she becomes anorexic because one thing she can control, that her mother cannot, is what goes, or doesn't go, into her stomach.  But, as far as her self-identity is concerned, she's taking the anorexic approach because she think's she's fat. 

If she, and my aunt, could look beyond the bigger, obvious bars of "I'm Fat" "I'm Anorexic", they'd see the bars in between of "control" "mom/daughter disconnect", etc.  Because, clearly, if those bars are not addressed, the situation will not change until it's too late and my cousin is in the ground. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Payne

At the risk of taking the metaphor too far, or losing the vibes from the original, the mother/daughter conflict in the example above could prehaps be considered as the welds that keep the bars in place?

You can't change your bars until you change what holds them in place?

LMNO

Hmmm... It seems there are different types of bars....


You might be running into familial dysfunction, but you see it as weight gain.




Interesting.

AFK

Responding to Payne's post.

I don't know.  I'll have to think about that one.

The reason I came up with the bars between bars, scheme, is that it seems like the closer you look, the more you find that is impacting who you are, how you behave, decisions you make, etc., etc.,

Of course, this implies that at some point, someone can become OC with magnifying the space between the bars and losing perspective.  

Another one of those delicate balance deals.  
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Payne

Yeah, on reflection, I like your idea better.

Maybe it's just the fractal idea I like :D

Mangrove

RWHN - Worthy addition to the ongoing BIP dialogue.

I actually don't think it's played out either. I think that BIP was an overnight success that was in years in the making. The original project manifested pretty quickly but it's ancestry was the huge 'inter-forum' shit storms that were going on followed by the near total death of PD.com.

I thought also that the 'shrapnel' concept had legs too, so I would sort of like to see that reactivated. Like Payne, I was more of the mind that a metaphor implying radioactive emissions (eg: sunlight) worked well. But that's neither here nor there. Essentially, it was an interesting avenue that could use more exploration futurely.

Getting to the topic in hand, I love the fractal nature of the bars endless repeating regardless of whatever scale the observer happens to be looking from.

From my personal experience as a bodyworker, I see the effects of this all the time. People can often form unhealthy bonds to their conditions and symptomologies. One of my teachers in the UK advised me that it was important to 'remove the client's badges'. By that, he meant that people will say things like:

client: My bad back is the worst ever. I've been to every kind of therapist and it never improved! (note: client is proud of the fact that they're injured, in pain and less capable than they were pre-back pain)

My teacher was big into mindfucking his clients so his response was:

therapist: Oh really? That's weird. I've had at least 10 clients who were in worse condition.
client: Uhh...what happened to them?
therapist: They all got better.

Self identity with illness (real or imagined) is an exceedingly common habit and I see it often in my line of work.

client: Can you fix this?
me: No. But only because you weren't broken to begin with.

Starting on Monday I came down with a cold, very minor and nothing really to worry about at all. A few years ago I decided to re-frame my experience of 'colds' by saying:

I'm not actually sick. What I'm experiencing is the side-effects of my natural immunity to whatever virus this is. A few days nasal congestion and a bit of fever is, to me, a fair trade for the fact that I'm very unlikely to die from this - and without an immune system, that's almost certainly what would happen to me.

So I try and keep the words 'sickness' or 'illness' in store for serious things.

As a related issue, the over-diagnosis of ADD and Bipolar Disorder in America has resulted in many people self-identifying with these labels, even if they do not have have these conditions or were never diagnosed as having them. Personally, I think that most of the people who have been disagnosed have been mislead, especially in the case of children, but that's another topic altogether. But I do hear often people saying stuff like they're 'ADD' or 'Bipolar' when they actually mean something else. There is a tendency for people to superficially acquire labels from other sources, not understand their implications and then add them to the accretion of other self-identifications.

As a bodyworker, it's my contention that if anyone still insists that there is a 'mind/body' divide need to be kicked in the shins. In doing so, I send a stimulus up the leg, to the spine, into the brain and then back to the site of injury. There is no divide. In the embryo, the layer of cells that turns into your brain & nervous system is, ironically, the same tissue that will ultimately turn into your skin. Your skin is either the outermost layer of your brain, or your brain is the innermost part of your skin.

Because of this, the self-idenfication of illness and injuries works on a variety of levels.

What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

AFK

I really like what you posted about colds.  I wish I could get my wife to subscribe to that sort of thinking.  Although, I sometimes wonder if she gets a small amount of enjoyment out of being miserable. 

I was actually thinking about the Shrapnel thing again today, and I may have more to add to that in the near future, if I can get it all sorted out in my mind. 

That mind/body is so spot on.  One can mindfuck themselves so easily without realising or comprehending what they are doing. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cramulus


Mangrove

What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

tyrannosaurus vex

A lot of things play into this.

Lately because I have had little time to reflect on myself as an object, I have shifted my cognitive time to identifying myself in terms of what I do.

I may have descended from a line of uptight religious assholes, and I don't want to say I am free of baggage from that but I don't think it's directly affecting me at this moment.

Right now, "I" am just a bag of organic material with a short-term expiration date.  I can't say without time to think about it what has given me all the habits and baggage I have.  I am more in control of the habits and baggage I give to other people, especially my kids.

I am whatever it is that causes my son to feel like he's safe in his own house, and know that his needs are taken care of.  I am the force of nature that exists specifically to comfort my now 9 months pregnant wife.  Although, not as egotistical as that might sound.

Right now I don't feel boxed into a prison because although I may be staring at the same cell every day I am using the "bars" actively in an effort to build something that lasts.

This is probably unrelated, I'm not paying enough attention.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

tyrannosaurus vex

lol, thread roont. i should resign from the bip.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.