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Bars and Self-Identity

Started by AFK, September 21, 2007, 03:29:54 PM

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Bu🤠ns

the fractal metaphor is an interesting concept because it implies that the identifications are endless.  i was actually hoping that you would also consider the spaces themselves since they too are an aspect of the fractal and not just the bars themselves.  from what i understand the bars represent the identies in the forefront of our mind but what do the spaces represent?  what would be the most useful representation of the negative space of the image? 

do the spaces represent ambitions and dreams or the idealized forms of our potentiality? or do they represent the unconscience bars of our past that push us into future desires? afterall, desires are simply elements of past experiences wanting to manifest themselves again, right? 

is it possible to have a truely original thought?  if all of our thoughts are influenced by our past experiences, then it would seem to me that the spaces would represent our desires.  perhaps they even represent an imaginary ideal for what we think we should become? 

so, what happens when one breaks from the BIP? 

maybe nothing? or maybe one finds himself sitting infront of his computer typing this reply.


[i've read through the BIP and i love the metaphors. although perhaps most of you covered much of what i've talked about since i have not read through all of the commentary.  the OP just gave me some food for thought and i thought i'd share so i apologize if some of this has already been covered :)]

Triple Zero

1) i'm gonna throw the words "figure" and "ground" into this thread. *plonk*

2) if, by breaking out of somewhere, you only get into a new prison, this means that when you look through the bars, all you can see out there are bars of prisons further away (just like the nightsky should be brightly lit with stars, if it weren't for the speed of light, age of the universe and physics and stuff).
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

AFK

Quote from: burnstoupee on September 24, 2007, 04:52:48 AM
the fractal metaphor is an interesting concept because it implies that the identifications are endless.  i was actually hoping that you would also consider the spaces themselves since they too are an aspect of the fractal and not just the bars themselves.  from what i understand the bars represent the identies in the forefront of our mind but what do the spaces represent?  what would be the most useful representation of the negative space of the image? 

do the spaces represent ambitions and dreams or the idealized forms of our potentiality? or do they represent the unconscience bars of our past that push us into future desires? afterall, desires are simply elements of past experiences wanting to manifest themselves again, right? 

is it possible to have a truely original thought?  if all of our thoughts are influenced by our past experiences, then it would seem to me that the spaces would represent our desires.  perhaps they even represent an imaginary ideal for what we think we should become? 

so, what happens when one breaks from the BIP? 

maybe nothing? or maybe one finds himself sitting infront of his computer typing this reply.


[i've read through the BIP and i love the metaphors. although perhaps most of you covered much of what i've talked about since i have not read through all of the commentary.  the OP just gave me some food for thought and i thought i'd share so i apologize if some of this has already been covered :)]


I honestly don't know a lot about fractals other than the endlessly repeating idea, which is why I threw it on the diagram, complete with ? mark.  I'm not sure about the spaces. 

I would tend to think the spaces close as time passes.  When we start as an infant we have limited experiences aside from the instant biological instincts we are born with.  So when we are born we self-identify as something that needs food, love, warmth, and shelter.  But we don't have the deep, entrenched sociological things going on.  Or at least, it would seem they'd be very, very simplified. 

I think the main thing I was trying to get at in this thread was the idea that there are certain parts of ourselves, our experiences, that we rely upon when we think of ourselves.  It seems like there are a base amount of bars on the surface, that make up our self-identity.  I see those being the immediate bars you see in a prison cell.

I originally thought, metaphorically, that the spaces between the bars would be the elements of ourselves that are more buried or that are layered deeper underneath.  But, then I thought it makes more sense for there to be smaller bars between, and that if you dig deep, you find more. 

This also lends itself to the idea of digging too deep, to get too caught up in your thoughts, where you get lost in the prison.  I mean, think of how desperate a situtation that must be, to be lost in a prison cell. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

Burns:

Have you ever met anyone* who has said something like, "I'd really love to take up painting, but _______ (I've got bills to pay, my parents would get upset, people would make fun of me, et al)?

The desire to paint, the vast potential of possibility, could be the space between the bars, and the thing that's stopping this person are the bars themselves.


Also, please see the Sermon on Ethics and Love in the PD.























*using the Third Person, in case the First is too personal.

Bu🤠ns

okay.  i think i see what you're getting at.

it seems that in a roundabout way the metaphor kinda parallels the buddhist concept of being bound to the Dharmacakra or wheel of samsara.  as i understand it, one can be bound by chains of gold or iron which represent the attachements one has toward the postive and negative parts of life.  the sermon on ethics and love hints at the attachements themselves which could also be why the spaces can represent vast potential but not the actuality.


Richter

Reflecting on the OP a bit.  Iit fair to say that some bars make good handholds for heaving yourself out?  As LMNO mentioned in his comment about dif. types of bars, some may be useful, but you have to let go of them eventually, if OUT is where you're trying to get.

Just expanding on the metaphor a bit
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

AFK

Cept, you really can't get out, short of a shotgun breakfast.

However, I think what you are talking about is what I would describe as getting lost in the bars.  So referring to the diagram and the fractal idea.  If you magnify the spaces between the bars too much to find the smaller more buried bars, if you go digging too deep, you may lose perspective and be lost in your cell. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Richter

I was more following the line of thought of "you can get out of the cell, but you're still only in the prison.", and pondering if anything could be both a bar and a "Handhold" if you will, a self - identification that could be usefull for a time.
Identification as a limitation I'd agree with, but could an identification, for a time be a useful tool?  (Tools being a subtle trap themselves could more limit than help you.)

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 26, 2007, 05:56:33 PM
However, I think what you are talking about is what I would describe as getting lost in the bars.  So referring to the diagram and the fractal idea.  If you magnify the spaces between the bars too much to find the smaller more buried bars, if you go digging too deep, you may lose perspective and be lost in your cell. 
I think I follow; don't split hairs over the metaphor, focus on the message / situation?



 
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

AFK

Oh I get you.  Oh absolutely the bars can serve useful purposes, just as they can serve for ill.  For example, if playing music is a bar (honestly, pun NOT intended) and always searching for truth, is another, these bars together can be quite useful.  Searching for the truth through art.  Using the art, the music, to help you explore your world. 

I think where looking between your bars of self-identification is important is when you're kind of stuck with something about yourself that you don't like.  So I gave the example earlier about my cousin the anorexic.  If she were able to see some of the smaller bars that were playing into the bigger ones, she might have a better chance to orient herself, or, to at least acknowledge that she and her mom indeed do need professional help to help them navigate their choppy waters. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Richter

Getting caught up pondering bars is an easy thing to let happen  Interesting ramifications for Ego overall.
I can't help cross referencing it whith some buddhist ideas too, lots to chew over here.
Thanks, this has gotten my wheels turning!
 
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Mangrove

Perhaps, the 'spaces' are the negatives of the bars. (I think someone mentioned that already).

In terms of self-identification, if for example someone says:

'I am a Christian' (bar)

then it means that they stating (indirectly) that they are not an atheist, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc etc. (space)

Of course if they say:

'I am a Catholic Christian'

that then creates further refinement of the self-ID. Because not only does it rule out everything that isn't Christian, it also rules out all other types of Christianity.

Every statement is also a statement of it's opposite. (I think in a Crowley-ish kinda way)
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

LMNO

What's interesting is, as the bars get narrower and narrower, they tend to block out more and more space.

Dysfunctional Cunt

But is the space really there or do we just recognize it as it diminishes? 

Are the bars merely dividers for what fills up the spaces. 

As you grow older and become more regulated into the "way things need to be" mentality do your spaces slowly close as you add more and more responsibility, bend to more accepted ideas etc.  And are the bars are the dividers we are born with?

And if this is the case, if you refuse to bend to that mentality, do you keep your spaces open?  If you refuse to be sick, will you keep a window between the dividers for illness?  Is it not the bars but the spaces that keep you in prison?


AFK

Being human keeps you in the prison.

The bars and spaces, and getting lost in them, or not recognizing the at all, is what keeps you in your prison cell. 

For some, it's blissful ignorance, so it doesn't matter.
For some, it's obsessive compulsive introspection, so it's seemingly futile. 
For some, it's just a way to pass the hours, waiting for the inevitable.
For some, it's a way to blaze your own trail, and drawing your own damn horizon. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Self-identification or self-definition?

I identify with all sorts of memes... Discordian, Hacker, SCAdian, Duelist, Poet, Writer, Stoner, Chef... but these aren't necessarily constricting or limiting. By identifying with the Discordian meme (or Memetic entity perhaps), I'm not saying that I may not also be Atheist, Thelemic, Druid, Wiccan, Neo-Pagan, or Chaos Magician. When I call myself a hacker, I'm not restricting myself from being a gamer, or a web surfer. Identifying as a Poet doesn't stop me from writing Prose, nor does it stop me from writing music...

However, defining oneself as any of those things may indeed be bars in a BiP. Once again, we might see that the bars exist in the perception of the observer.

Just a random thought...

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson