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Black Sheep ARE still Sheep

Started by AFK, May 14, 2008, 03:58:20 PM

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AFK

So, yet another teevee episode that conjured ideas we've discussed here.  This time it was Law and Order: SVU.  It guest-starred Robin Williams as this audio engineer who was quite adept at manipulating people.  He knew how to exploit their weaknesses to get them to do what he wanted them to do, even the cops.  Anyway, he gets arrested for a conspiracy to get this other guy to molest an underage girl, he goes to trial, represents himself, and is able to hoodwink the jury into finding him not-guilty.  He then starts this movement based on the ideal of not being a sheep and bowing down to authority.  Authority in this story not being just the government and police, but others in society who are given pedestals and power like physicians.  So he was able to find many people who could identify with this message, who wanted to rail against authority and be non-conformist, but he was really doing this for his own sick pleasure and as an elaborate rouse to avoid arrest and prosecution.

Anyway, it just got me thinking about while there are many Sheep in our society, who do blindly follow authority, it seems there are probably also ample Black Sheep in our society, who thirst to rail against authority, but not necessarily for the right reasons (that is, the reasons that are right for them personally).  It's like they leap-frog right over the idea of "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" and allow others to tell them how to think when it comes to non-conformity.  I guess the common denominator would be laziness.  They know they want to go in a different direction, but they really don't want to be bothered too much to come up with their own path, and they certainly don't want to go it alone. 

I'm thinking, a neat, sort of marketing idea for these folks is to send them a box.  We call it the "Complete Tool Kit for Freedom:  Everything you Need to Be Yourself and to Guide YOUR Destiny"  They open the box, it contains only a mirror at the bottom of the box. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

That resonated with the idea that doing the opposite of something, just because it's popular, isn't actually being independent.

Cramulus

What if you don't conform to the Black Sheep by being a regular sheep?


relevant South Park clip:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154495/?tag=Nonconformist


AFK

I think that might be like the idea we've talked about before, regarding BIP, where someone is able to see the BIP, and their cell within it, yet, elect to remain in their particular cell.  So, they see the other possibilities, the other options, but in the end, they are happy or content to remain right where they are. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Kilgore Trout"Dear sir, poor sir, brave sir: You are an experiment by the Creator of the Universe. You are the only creature in the entire Universe who has free will. You are the only one who has to figure out what to do next--and why. Everybody else is a robot, a machine.
    "Some persons seem to like you, and others seem to hate you, and you must wonder why. They are simply liking machines and hating machines.
    "You are pooped and demoralized. Why wouldn't you be? Of course it's exhausting, having to reason every time in a universe which wasn't meant to be reasonable.
    "You are surrounded by loving machines, hating machines, greedy machines, unselfish machines, brave machines, cowardly machines, truthful machines, lying machines, funny machines, solemn machines. Their only purpose is to stir you up in every conceivable way, so the Creator of the Universe can watch your reactions. They can no more feel or reason than grandfather clocks.
    "The Creator of the Universe would now like to apologize not only for the capricious, jostling companionship he provided during the test, but for the trashy, stinking condition of the planet itself. The Creator programmed robots to abuse it for millions of years, so it would be a poisonous, festering cheese when you got here. Also, He made sure it would be desperately crowded by programming robots, regardless of their living conditions, to crave sexual intercourse and adore infants more than almost anything.
    "He also programmed robots to write books and magazines and newspapers for you, and television and radio shows, and stage shows, and films. They wrote songs for you. The Creator of the Universe had them invent hundreds of religions, so you would have plenty to choose among. He had them kill each other by the millions, for this purpose only: that you be amazed. They had commited every possible atrocity and every possible kindness unfeelingly, automatically, inevitably, to get a reaction from Y-O-U."


Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

tyrannosaurus vex

an aversion to authority indicates a healthy desire to control your own destiny and shape your own situation.

but it can also indicate an unhealthy desire to be the authority you despise - to not know when to stop wanting more control over "your situation," which is a concept sufficiently elastic to include almost anything.

the question is, where does the individual end and the collective begin? it is the same question that spawned discussions on the Machine.

do you buck the system because it has wronged you? do you buck the system because it is ugly or ineffective? do you buck the system because you cannot control it? all of these are good enough motives at first, but they are fundamentally flawed in that they assume there is such a thing as a Perfect System. Once you are in control, you assume you have arrived at such Perfect System, but no system is perfect for everyone, so you become what you fought, and someone else becomes what you once were.

So, personally, like George Mallory, I buck the System because it is there. There is no system that exists that does not fit that description.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: vexati0n on May 14, 2008, 04:55:04 PM
an aversion to authority indicates a healthy desire to control your own destiny and shape your own situation.

but it can also indicate an unhealthy desire to be the authority you despise - to not know when to stop wanting more control over "your situation," which is a concept sufficiently elastic to include almost anything.

So, personally, like George Mallory, I buck the System because it is there. There is no system that exists that does not fit that description.

Or do we buck the system because we're "system bucking machines"?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

Tthe keyword is programming.  Is it really the system we are bucking or the programming we have undergone?  Or are they one in the same?

AFK

It probably should be more of the latter, but gets confused when too much focus is put on the former.  Because really, it probably isn't realistic or practical to disavow the entirety of The System.  As The System generally contains entities that we kind of need in some sense or another, like healthcare for example. 

However, I think the ideal is to find a way to operate, at least partly, within The System, (the parts that we seem to need to survive) but in a way that makes us happy.  So it's kinda like operating within The System, but on our own terms. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

tyrannosaurus vex

that works too. i'm not particularly interested in forcing the notion that there is any meaningful way to completely rise above one's programming. i'm not convinced that there is any way to have a fully original thought in the first place, much less to perform a fully original function.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

Tthe keyword is programming.  Is it really the system we are bucking or the programming we have undergone?  Or are they one in the same?

Oh ho! Now that seems like an interesting question to me!

It seems like there may be many possible answers, depending on how optimistic (or full of shit?) we tend to be.

1. All humans have the potential to be FREE and Think For Themselves. However, X stops mosbunal of them from acting on this potential. (Where X = their Programming or The System)

2. All humans are pre-programmed robots doomed to act out their programming. Some programmed machines give the appearance of sheeplike obedience, some programmed machines give the appearance of complete independence, other programmed machines do what they're programmed to do and appear in line with their program. This is what makes The System.

3. Some humans have the potential to be FREE, some humans don't. (Programming and Systems be damned)

4. All humans ARE FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe. (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

5. All humans ARE FREE, most humans just don't realize it. (Fnord)

Maybe there are more options...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

Tthe keyword is programming.  Is it really the system we are bucking or the programming we have undergone?  Or are they one in the same?

Oh ho! Now that seems like an interesting question to me!

It seems like there may be many possible answers, depending on how optimistic (or full of shit?) we tend to be.

1. All humans have the potential to be FREE and Think For Themselves. However, X stops mosbunal of them from acting on this potential. (Where X = their Programming or The System)

2. All humans are pre-programmed robots doomed to act out their programming. Some programmed machines give the appearance of sheeplike obedience, some programmed machines give the appearance of complete independence, other programmed machines do what they're programmed to do and appear in line with their program. This is what makes The System.

3. Some humans have the potential to be FREE, some humans don't. (Programming and Systems be damned)

4. All humans ARE FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe. (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

5. All humans ARE FREE, most humans just don't realize it. (Fnord)

Maybe there are more options...

All humans have the POTENTIAL to be FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe.   They prefer the "pack" mentality.  (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

I like those options, but I'm thinking along the lines of the above.  #4 with a couple of changes.  So taking that, anyone who is outside the "pack" is a rogue which is usually a loner.  When the rogues begin to group together, are they not building yet another machine?

hooplala

Who was it that said "It's not wise to learn new things too quickly"?  Or, something to that effect.

There's some truth there.


Also: Rat... Breakfast of Champions Trout for the win!
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:29:02 PM


All humans have the POTENTIAL to be FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe.   They prefer the "pack" mentality.  (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

I like those options, but I'm thinking along the lines of the above.  #4 with a couple of changes.  So taking that, anyone who is outside the "pack" is a rogue which is usually a loner.  When the rogues begin to group together, are they not building yet another machine?


Maybe.

I suppose only an outside observer would truly know... How do you find the difference between a really, really well programmed "Rogue Robot" versus a really, real rogue?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:29:02 PM


All humans have the POTENTIAL to be FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe.   They prefer the "pack" mentality.  (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

I like those options, but I'm thinking along the lines of the above.  #4 with a couple of changes.  So taking that, anyone who is outside the "pack" is a rogue which is usually a loner.  When the rogues begin to group together, are they not building yet another machine?



Maybe.

I suppose only an outside observer would truly know... How do you find the difference between a really, really well programmed "Rogue Robot" versus a really, real rogue?

The lulz.