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Black Sheep ARE still Sheep

Started by AFK, May 14, 2008, 03:58:20 PM

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LMNO

Quote from: Hoopla on May 14, 2008, 05:37:42 PM
Who was it that said "It's not wise to learn new things too quickly"?  Or, something to that effect.

There's some truth there.


Also: Rat... Breakfast of Champions Trout for the win!


You mean, "do not understand me too quickly"?  I believe it was André Gide.

hooplala

I didn't think that was the phrase, but mine's not bringing anything up, so let's go with that.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:45:06 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:29:02 PM


All humans have the POTENTIAL to be FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe.   They prefer the "pack" mentality.  (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

I like those options, but I'm thinking along the lines of the above.  #4 with a couple of changes.  So taking that, anyone who is outside the "pack" is a rogue which is usually a loner.  When the rogues begin to group together, are they not building yet another machine?



Maybe.

I suppose only an outside observer would truly know... How do you find the difference between a really, really well programmed "Rogue Robot" versus a really, real rogue?

The lulz.


Are lulz not programmable?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

tyrannosaurus vex

if (cat == long) then { lulz; }
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 06:33:58 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:45:06 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:29:02 PM


All humans have the POTENTIAL to be FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe.   They prefer the "pack" mentality.  (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

I like those options, but I'm thinking along the lines of the above.  #4 with a couple of changes.  So taking that, anyone who is outside the "pack" is a rogue which is usually a loner.  When the rogues begin to group together, are they not building yet another machine?



Maybe.

I suppose only an outside observer would truly know... How do you find the difference between a really, really well programmed "Rogue Robot" versus a really, real rogue?

The lulz.


Are lulz not programmable?

Possibly.  

But...  if it is truly a really real rogue, he would have control of his emotions and only laugh, cry, rage when he chose too, not when expected.  With that, a really real rogue would have "new and surprising" lulz as opposed to ummm memes.   8)

LMNO

Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 06:43:24 PM
he would have control of his emotions and only laugh, cry, rage when he chose too, not when expected.  


That sounds strangely robotic.

e

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

Tthe keyword is programming.  Is it really the system we are bucking or the programming we have undergone?  Or are they one in the same?

Oh ho! Now that seems like an interesting question to me!

It seems like there may be many possible answers, depending on how optimistic (or full of shit?) we tend to be.

1. All humans have the potential to be FREE and Think For Themselves. However, X stops mosbunal of them from acting on this potential. (Where X = their Programming or The System)

2. All humans are pre-programmed robots doomed to act out their programming. Some programmed machines give the appearance of sheeplike obedience, some programmed machines give the appearance of complete independence, other programmed machines do what they're programmed to do and appear in line with their program. This is what makes The System.

3. Some humans have the potential to be FREE, some humans don't. (Programming and Systems be damned)

4. All humans ARE FREE, most humans just actually like being part of the tribe. (They consciously or subconsciously program one another and build the Machine)

5. All humans ARE FREE, most humans just don't realize it. (Fnord)

Maybe there are more options...

You forgot the most important Kilgorian option:  We're really only here so the bacteria can reproduce.

AFK

Safety nets.

It's fine and dandy to want to strike out your own path, march to your own beat, try to walk away from the trappings of The System.

But what happens if you pick a dark path, that leads to a dangerous trap or pitfall?
If you are walking your path alone, this could lead to a bleak outcome.

So you want to join a band of merrymen to take the journey with you.
So you can share stories
and strategies.
And have that safetynet of fellowship, in case it doesn't seem to work out. 

Loneliness is a big fear for many.
And may be what keeps the sheep close to the herd, even if it's the herd of Black Sheep. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Verbal Mike

The question of determinism vs. free will is one of the first questions I ever tried to really figure out... I only stopped when I figured it must be the wrong question. So I vote option 2 AND option 5. We're programmed to be free, or something. It doesn't make sense, but neither option alone makes any sense either.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Verbatim on May 14, 2008, 07:41:26 PM
It doesn't make sense, but neither option alone makes any sense either.

Thus NON-sense!!
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:



- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

I'm gonna borrow from maybe logic, and say that in any given situation, there is a sliding scale of probability whether or not a human will act with what can be observed as "free will".

In some situations, they will react as if following a programmed set of instructions.  In others, they will react as if they were in complete control of their own thoughts and actions.

Only through extended observation can any measure of successful prrediction be made.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: LMNO on May 14, 2008, 08:05:04 PM
I'm gonna borrow from maybe logic, and say that in any given situation, there is a sliding scale of probability whether or not a human will act with what can be observed as "free will".

In some situations, they will react as if following a programmed set of instructions.  In others, they will react as if they were in complete control of their own thoughts and actions.

Only through extended observation can any measure of successful prrediction be made.

And even then, we may just be observing machines or predicting machines...

LAWL O' Five's and all that
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Verbal Mike

I think more to the point, free will and determinism just aren't necessarily two different things. Both seem true in a sense and untrue in a sense, but I can think of the two in a way that they are one and seem to make sense. It's something like this: free choice exists if you're an entity that seems to act freely, but when observing such an entity it seems not to exists. Like, I have free will, even if I can't prove it, even if when I see YUO I think, 'you're probably just a machine'. You think the same of me and we both have free will.
Except it doesn't make sense to me when I write it out. Bah.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Requia ☣

Nobody is a robot all of the time.  Sometimes the robots change programming, frequently with very little persuasive influence, sometimes the robots *have* to think for themselves, simply because they are presented with a problem that requires it.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.