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TESTEMONAIL:  Right and Discordianism allows room for personal interpretation. You have your theories and I have mine. Unlike Christianity, Discordia allows room for ideas and opinions, and mine is well-informed and based on ancient philosophy and theology, so, my neo-Discordian friends, open your minds to my interpretation and I will open my mind to yours. That's fair enough, right? Just claiming to be discordian should mean that your mind is open and willing to learn and share ideas. You guys are fucking bashing me and your laughing at my theologies and my friends know what's up and are laughing at you and honestly this is my last shot at putting a label on my belief structure and your making me lose all hope of ever finding a ideological group I can relate to because you don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about and everything I have said is based on the founding principals of real Discordianism. Expand your mind.

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Black Sheep ARE still Sheep

Started by AFK, May 14, 2008, 03:58:20 PM

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rong

"Truman prefers his cell" -the Truman Show

-or-

I've been considering lately that the inherent flaw with democratic government is related to the conflict between high value placed on individuality and self reliance -vs- rule by popular vote.


   
"a real smart feller, he felt smart"

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Requiem on May 14, 2008, 09:38:44 PM
Nobody is a robot all of the time.  Sometimes the robots change programming, frequently with very little persuasive influence, sometimes the robots *have* to think for themselves, simply because they are presented with a problem that requires it.


I like to think that this concept is true.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 10:08:36 PM
Quote from: Requiem on May 14, 2008, 09:38:44 PM
Nobody is a robot all of the time.  Sometimes the robots change programming, frequently with very little persuasive influence, sometimes the robots *have* to think for themselves, simply because they are presented with a problem that requires it.


I like to think that this concept is true.

But that is pretty much a given.  I mean no programming can prepare one for every possible scenario.  Aren't the ones who change either rogues or potential rogues?

Triple Zero

Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

how can you be so certain?
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 10:13:10 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 10:08:36 PM
Quote from: Requiem on May 14, 2008, 09:38:44 PM
Nobody is a robot all of the time.  Sometimes the robots change programming, frequently with very little persuasive influence, sometimes the robots *have* to think for themselves, simply because they are presented with a problem that requires it.


I like to think that this concept is true.

But that is pretty much a given.  I mean no programming can prepare one for every possible scenario.  Aren't the ones who change either rogues or potential rogues?

Well, let's not confuse the model and reality... in reality we aren't programmed robots at all. We're humans that have imprinted certain behaviors, based on experiences. It seems to me that 'a robot' versus a 'rogue' is really discussing the people that accept their imprinted behaviors, or a person that has enough introspection to see the imprinted behavior and maybe effect changes in that imprint.

But, maybe that act, in and of itself could also be based on imprints.

Assuming, of course, that humans actually do imprint behaviors based on experiences... since I'm not a psychologist, I don't know if that's true in any sense, or if guys like Leary were nuts, or both.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Not to mention that "imprinting" is also a model.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

#36
Quote from: LMNO on May 16, 2008, 03:37:24 PM
Not to mention that "imprinting" is also a model.

Yeah, I just figured that the question might be better answered with a model that didn't use the "programmed" metaphor.

BUT I totally should have said "let's model it as..."
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: triple zero on May 16, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

how can you be so certain?

Because if we cannot believe that the machines are capable of reprogramming to the point of independence, then Operation: Mindfuck loses much of its purpose and we Discordians are resigned to fucking with the system just for the hell of it.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but several of us, I think, are programmed to hope that individuals can be persuaded or tricked into becoming independent thinkers.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Cainad on May 16, 2008, 06:09:03 PM
Quote from: triple zero on May 16, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

how can you be so certain?

Because if we cannot believe that the machines are capable of reprogramming to the point of independence, then Operation: Mindfuck loses much of its purpose and we Discordians are resigned to fucking with the system just for the hell of it.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but several of us, I think, are programmed to hope that individuals can be persuaded or tricked into becoming independent thinkers.

So then you believe that you're programmed to believe that humans can break their programming?

I love this rabbit hole ;-)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Persuaded? Tricked?

How about when life requires it?  Either think for yourself or die?

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Khara on May 16, 2008, 06:57:29 PM
Persuaded? Tricked?

How about when life requires it?  Either think for yourself or die?

When does life require it?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 16, 2008, 07:05:26 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 16, 2008, 06:57:29 PM
Persuaded? Tricked?

How about when life requires it?  Either think for yourself or die?

When does life require it?

In life threatening situations, of course...  :lulz:

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Khara on May 16, 2008, 07:06:36 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 16, 2008, 07:05:26 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 16, 2008, 06:57:29 PM
Persuaded? Tricked?

How about when life requires it?  Either think for yourself or die?

When does life require it?

In life threatening situations, of course...  :lulz:

ROFL
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 16, 2008, 06:44:35 PM
Quote from: Cainad on May 16, 2008, 06:09:03 PM
Quote from: triple zero on May 16, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
Quote from: Khara on May 14, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

how can you be so certain?

Because if we cannot believe that the machines are capable of reprogramming to the point of independence, then Operation: Mindfuck loses much of its purpose and we Discordians are resigned to fucking with the system just for the hell of it.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but several of us, I think, are programmed to hope that individuals can be persuaded or tricked into becoming independent thinkers.

So then you believe that you're programmed to believe that humans can break their programming?

I love this rabbit hole ;-)

Assuming that I am human, I would say yes, because I do believe I have broken my programming. I could be wrong.

Now, machines, on the other hand... how does one convince a cabbage to be something else? I dunno, just leave me alone in my optimistic fantasyland!

Requia ☣

QuoteNow, machines, on the other hand... how does one convince a cabbage to be something else? I dunno, just leave me alone in my optimistic fantasyland!

Convince them to be a different kind of cabbage.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.